![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
red_satin_doll
"You're standing at the mouth of Hell. And it's about to open up." *
***
"I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared.
I'm standing on the mouth of Hell and it's going to swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." **
* Joss Whedon
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 01:38 am (UTC)apparently we're in the minority together; I can agree that the way it was handled (by the writers) may have been off - but then again, arguments are very ugly things in real life, and they can spin out of control, so they have to be carefully handled on screen. And this one is in some ways a little too real. People do stupid illogical things when they are angry, and this scene is one of those instances of "everyone is a little bit right and everyone is a little bit wrong". It's not simple.
I actually find it interesting on a story level that Giles would chose Faith over Buffy and I have a theory about that - Faith at this point is pliable, her daddy issues are just as big as Buffy's, and she seems eager to please. Meanwhile Giles has retreated back into full-on "Watcher" mode, and he can mentor Faith without the emotional complications. And we've seen for a long time but esp since S4 that Giles needs to be needed, at least as a Watcher; whereas Buffy needs a supportive father figure but she's not a little girl anymore.
I've said to rahirah once that I do have the impression that on some level the writers may have been taking out a little of their dissatisfaction with Sarah in making Buffy such an uber bitch? It's not OOC for her - she has a bitchy side - but again it was just the extreme harshness. But that was my first-time-through reaction, I'm not so sure of that now.
I don't know who did the revision. I'm guessing Joss or Marti. Seems like the last part of the season got a tonal shift.
Definitely. It seems like there had been a lot of potential plans for spin offs, although the one you mention seems to have been the one that most nearly came about; rahirah mentioned that they originally meant to go more with the return to high school theme, that that had been talked about as a spin off, etc. IDK It's definitely a strange, prickly season.
I know you know that in the scene before they kick Buffy out, Dawn gives Buffy a kiss - which strikes me as sort of a "Judas kiss" symbolically; they filmed it that way and left that version in the weekly network promo, but removed it from the show itself. I'm sorry they did because that's an interesting touch.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 02:45 am (UTC)Oh, absolutely. Faith listens to Giles as is shown in the next episode. It was never about any kind of democracy--Kennedy is shut down immediately and they go with Faith/Giles plan. Giles second-guessed her decisions dating back to S4 and there are various hints at it instances in S7 (regarding Spike, etc) and like I mentioned before about some curious edits in S7, they cut out the Ben reference, a blatant instance of him going behind her back. So yeah, him questioning her and the others siding with him isn't new area.
*shrug* I don't think they did make her an uberbitch in S7. To me, she's perfectly in character given what just came before it. She just paid the price for *not* listening to her instincts and took the girls to the Vineyard. She didn't think they were ready, but she listened to Wood. It all turned to hell, so it makes perfect sense that she wouldn't back down from something she believed in. She was willing to discuss what strategy to use, but they weren't hearing it. Buffy getting over her self doubts and fatalism was pretty much the point of S7.
Of course the Scoobs and Potentials had reason to be scared, so it's not quite so simple to label them as horrible bad guys (though I am of the opinion that if they didn't like it, they should have been the ones to leave).
IDK It's definitely a strange, prickly season.
The Faith spinoff didn't go because Eliza chose to do Tru Calling. The other idea was a sort of Slayer school sort of thing. Truth be told, I'm glad neither went ahead.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 02:25 pm (UTC)It was never about any kind of democracy--Kennedy is shut down immediately and they go with Faith/Giles plan.
I actually liked that scene quite a lot, because it gets to what is, to me, part of the point - you can play chess with the people, shuffle the names and faces, but nothing is going to change as long as the same paradigm is in place. That's pretty much the series-long journey Buffy takes. And I liked the sense that the Potentials represented the "neo-feminists" (as I saw the term used in the 1990's by some women at the time) who assume that all the work has been "done" and equality has been achieved, and often don't appreciate what the generations of women before them had to struggle to achieve. With Kennedy it especially makes sense because she's also got class privilege; and any privilege can blind us to what other people don't have. (Anya's accusation that Buffy is "lucky" actually applies very well to Kennedy, who is the potential most like Buffy IMO.)
*shrug* I don't think they did make her an uberbitch in S7. To me, she's perfectly in character given what just came before it. She just paid the price for *not* listening to her instincts and took the girls to the Vineyard
I had forgotten that she got that advice from Wood - but no one in fandom ever talks about that either. I really should do a complete rewatch of the season; I remember how much I cringed at what Buffy said about Chloe and her "everyone sucks but me" speech the first time I heard it, but when I rewatch that episode I have more sympathy for her. Ok, saying Chloe was stupid was harsh, but that's the point - Buffy is stripped of resources, exhausted, (does she dig the grave herself because she doesn't know anymore how to delegate - surely Xander could have done it - or is it because she feels personally responsible? Now I think the latter.) I actually love her argument with Spike - somebody had to kick his ass into gear. Its tough love.
I think kicking her out in EP was likewise meant as an act of tough love but it went too far? Again, part of the point of the season - they are trapped in a closed system, taking their cues from one another.
Of course the Scoobs and Potentials had reason to be scared, so it's not quite so simple to label them as horrible bad guys (though I am of the opinion that if they didn't like it, they should have been the ones to leave).
Definitely agree. I do find Mark Field's analysis of this episode on his blog very interesting - he takes a very metaphorical view of the show: http://unpaidsophistry.blogspot.com/2013/02/empty-places.html#more
So why did they kick her out, instead of just getting up and leaving en masse? I think that the metaphor is driving the plot here. All of Sunnydale is now deserted, but Buffy’s house is crowded with her hopes, her dreams, her thoughts, her confusion, her insecurities. She needs to get away from all that in order to regroup.
I don't always agree with his analysis on other things but his take on EP is one I appreciate because it can be hard seeing that one past my own emotional reaction to it.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 03:31 pm (UTC)Oh, yeah, Giles would definitely do that. It's largely a metaphor for a father's stance when a girl moves out. They want their daughter to move out, be successful, yet second guess and undermine them because they don't trust them to have authority in their own life.
Buffy is stripped of resources, exhausted, (does she dig the grave herself because she doesn't know anymore how to delegate - surely Xander could have done it - or is it because she feels personally responsible? Now I think the latter.) I actually love her argument with Spike - somebody had to kick his ass into gear. Its tough love.
Oh, she's definitely pissed off at herself because it was her voicing her doubts and fears to Xander that The First used to get Chloe to commit suicide. She's not even allowed that level of relief. As for the Scoobs, my view of it was they never offered to do it. Sure, Buffy would have said it was her responsibility, but you know, it's always bugged me that they let her do it by herself, yet have no trouble butting into her personal life "for her own good". Xander claiming that they're her friends after letting her do that on her own just made me want to smack him...but again? Totally in character for them. Sure, they were heroes and could fight the battles, but when it came down to the real nitty-gritty, nightmare-giving stuff? They seemed to be absent. It's a continuation of the "It's my job theme" from earlier in Selfless and sort of joked about in STSP. And yeah, her argument with Spike, I liked. I do admit I think it was a little OOC in S7 for him to show the blatant disrespect of getting up and walking out right while she was talking.
an act of tough love but it went too far?
I don't think it was about tough love or teaching a lesson. After all, *they* were the ones who suffered for it in the long run.
Sort of a agree with the analysis. Works better as the metaphor than in the narrative in a lot of ways. But I look at things weirdly. Like I see Buffy killing Caleb as the slaying of her daddy issue. Before she kills him, it's Angel who runs the scene, after that it's Buffy. She's calling the shots and sends him away.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 06:44 pm (UTC)YES, exactly. And it's hypocritical of him after walking out on her in S6, but it's something that happens in RL all the time; humans can love one another and have the best intentions and still hurt each other.
Absolutely right about the Scoob's being in character; and in hindsight I actually cut them all a lot of slack because - where were they supposed to learn these wonderful values that everyone wants them to have and be totally mature and supportive? They each have rather broken homes, unstable or unavailable parents, etc; they basically are having to make it up as they go along. Doesn't mean I enjoy watching it, but it's not OOC or all that unrealistic. In fact, it's almost too realistic.
I don't know if Spike walking out was OOC for him at that point; as he said to Wood earlier to the "How's that [the soul] going for you?" "In progress" Spike in S7 is very much a work in progress; and we've seen him back away from demons and physical fights, so in a way this is an extension of that - trying to back down from a (verbal) fight and Buffy calls him on the carpet. I just rewatched it btw, and the callback to Smashed in her "I'm nowhere near him" line struck me as significant.
After all, *they* were the ones who suffered for it in the long run.
True but intention and outcome are two different things.
Like I see Buffy killing Caleb as the slaying of her daddy issue.
Hadn't thought of that but it works for me! I do think it's funny that Angel is out of commission most of the scene, just as he was generally pretty useless in the early seasons, and that's the point - big hero to come and save the day and he doesn't. Again.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 08:31 pm (UTC)I don't know if Spike walking out was OOC for him at that point
That's true. We don't really know Souled Spike at that point.
big hero to come and save the day and he doesn't. Again.
Well, he does at the beginning, but it's very short-lived. Added to that I once read somewhere that Fillon auditioned for Angel. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's an interesting tidbit.
I really think a big dropped ball was Joss not killing Xander as he planned. Xander represented a lot of underlying problems and male insecurities and would have tied up so many themes a little better.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 09:35 pm (UTC)As Buffy herself said "you don't even know you". The old Spike would have snarked and snapped and made derogatory remarks about all of them, then sauntered out with a dramatic sweep of his coat. This Spike tries to sneak out of the room before Buffy stops him. I can see him wanting to separate himself from the angry mood, which is pretty normal - and in a RL situation I'd call it healthy, but this isn't RL. Whether that's because he's feeling battered or whether he's still making the mistake that Willow is making re: magic, and "holding back" because he wants to snap at Buffy but thinks he oughtn't I don't know. In some ways, she's right - the old Spike, or certain qualities he possessed is exactly what she needs, and not just in terms of fighting skills.
"if I need someone to get weepy or whaled on, I'll call you". *lol* That is SO Angel.
I once read somewhere that Fillon auditioned for Angel.
I read that somewhere as well - he probably could have done a good job of it, but it would have been a very different performance. Speaking of trivia, you probably know that "supposedly" that was to be Riley not Angel in EoD/Chosen, but I'm a little more skeptical about that. It doesn't make as much sense to me thematically.
I really think a big dropped ball was Joss not killing Xander as he planned.
Then Emma Caulfield asked to be written out.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-18 09:50 pm (UTC)but I'm a little more skeptical about that. It doesn't make as much sense to me thematically.
*eyebrow raise* Yeah, color me skeptical as well...but it does kind of fit that helicopter stuff. Hell, it might be true. I daresay it actually makes sense given his re-introduction in 7-13.
Then Emma Caulfield asked to be written out.
Yeah, that was a Fox thing. Apparently they weren't big on letting actors do side projects or something.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-20 01:00 am (UTC)Did she have another project going at the time?
no subject
Date: 2013-04-20 01:29 am (UTC)Well, there are multiple stories about whether they even were cancelled or just 'ended'. According to Joss, everyone knew it would be the last of Buffy before it started. I think the way things were written kind of back that up as far as Buffy goes.
Either way, when they were breaking Chosen, I don't think all the possibilities for spinoffs were dead. Chosen script was turned in April 3rd. So figure a week or two more to break it, go through revisions, etc. She probably asked in March when some other ideas were being kicked around and the slayer school thing was still a possibility.
I forget where she mentioned Fox, but she said she wasn't happy with them. From what I remember, she made some comments on Howard Stern about not being happy with some BtS stuff. Naturally people thought she was referring to SMG, but when asked later she clarified it had something to do with Fox.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 02:01 pm (UTC)Which is true of pretty much everything about the show, but I guess that's what happens when there are so many people involved in the show, and they all have their own POV or version of events (a la Rashamon) plus what's misquoted in the media, misremembered, passed along by fans and altered on down the line like a game of telephone. I mean, some of it is interesting for me to hear about, in terms of the context and how it affects what I've seen - if and when I care - so long as I take everything I read or hear with a grain or salt. Speaking of,
According to Joss, everyone knew it would be the last of Buffy before it started.
Wasn't that in reaction to AH stating that she and the cast were taken by surprise by Sarah's "announcement" that she was leaving? Aly seems to have been Joss' "special snowflake" in a lot of ways (see the production of OMWF) so that's actually a rather strong defense of Sarah on his part esp in context. (not that I care, not that I care, not that I.... *lol*)
Where does Fox come into it, btw? Did Fox own UPN? Assume I'm clueless because I am.
Naturally people thought she was referring to SMG, but when asked later she clarified it had something to do with Fox
Was that still the era of "blame Sarah (and Marti) for everything"? (So the boys can be untouched and blameless gods?) Are we still in that era? We've moved past that, right? Again, newbie here: so not interested.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 03:27 pm (UTC)so that's actually a rather strong defense of Sarah on his part esp in context
Which is why I tend to believe it. There's really no reason to defend it and it's not like he jumps at the chance to do so very often. I want to give Aly the benefit of the doubt and think it's a joke gone awry (sarcasm doesn't translate to text well), but she also said some stuff about Gellar not having friends onset, which Brendon said she needed to stop saying because it wasn't true. So I don't know. I just don't buy people, especially the cast, not knowing.
Where does Fox come into it, btw?
Fox produced Buffy (and Angel). WB paid them the rights to air it for 1-5 (which Fox was actually losing money on). After S5, WB didn't want to pay the higher fee, so UPN took over.
Are we still in that era?
Yup.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 04:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 04:39 pm (UTC)I think the real reason she was annoyed was because she thought it was something the cast should have featured in together and not just Sarah
Which I suppose could still could be a rationalization for other issues - or more annoyance on a pile of others. As you say, Aly's issues. Obviously they weren't "tight" anymore if they'd ever been in reality. But Sarah having her own covers and interviews was hardly anything new (there's lots of video interview with her from back in the day on YouTube). She was THE star of the show. It's All. About. Buffy. (contrary to popular opinion.) Take away "Willow" or any other major character and the show can still function; f.ex. DB, MN, ASH. Take away Buffy and you've got - a spin-off version. The only contrary example that comes to mind is Valerie Perrine dropping out/fired from "Valerie"; Sandy Duncan stepped in and it became "Valerie's Family." (And that is the only time you'll see it mentioned in the same breath as BtVS.) Was that the same show, a spin-off, or both?
In any case, doesn't the magazine makes the decisions as to who/what it wants to cover? Or is it also on the actor's manager/agent? In any case, I'd say Aly got the last laugh, career-wise.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 05:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 05:45 pm (UTC)but she expressed her annoyance by instead complaining how unfair it was on the crew to find out about the show ending at the last minute when they have no time to look for new jobs.
Could be, but again? It's unlikely they wouldn't have known of the EW feature. It isn't as though magazine spreads just pop up out of nowhere. Photoshoot, interview; by the time all that's confirmed, edited and printed it's 2-4 weeks for a weekly rag like EW. People would have known about it. And at that time the spinoffs were still up in the air so it really wouldn't have made a great deal of sense for a full cast spread when the only person confirmed to be leaving at that point was SMG.
My own theory is you're thinking is probably right. She was annoyed that Gellar got all the attention, but...the show is called Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. Of course they're going to focus on Buffy. It's the ensemble thing. It's an ensemble show! ...despite it focusing on one character and one actor handling the bulk of the promotion and workload.
Could be sour grapes. After the thing about friends on Stern, I'm just skeptical of Aly.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 08:25 pm (UTC)Didn't Aly also have those American Pie (or whatever) movies, which I think means that in sheer box office grosses she may be the most successful BtVS cast member? She'd gotten that coveted last spot on in the cast credits that used to belong to ASH. etc. So - two queen bees, one hive? And BTW - I do NOT hate Aly at all; she's funny in interviews (as is Sarah - they're both pros at the game.) in fact I started watching HIMYM because of her (although I've stuck with it because of - pretty much every other cast member esp CS & NPH. After watching Buffy, seeing her performance as Lily is actually a come-down for me. Like, eh, ok, she has her moments of awesome here and there.)
It's the ensemble thing. It's an ensemble show! ...despite it focusing on one character and one actor handling the bulk of the promotion and workload.
*snort*
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 09:20 pm (UTC)I'm not sure the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Seth Green holds that title because of Austin Powers, Rat Race, Italian Job, SD2. Then Gellar, then Aly.
I don't really hate Aly, she just seems to have a P/A streak in her 'cause yeah, totally Joss's pet. OMWF commentary? Come on, Joss.
*snort*
That's the thing, though. Joss has actually said this. It's an ensemble show that's really mostly about the one character. So much so that the writers took storylines to make it All. About. Buffy. Earshot? Started as Xander getting mind-reading abilities. They made it about Buffy 'cause "It's always better when it's about Buffy." Find the Buffy in it, etc. Just another in a long line of WTF things Joss has said over the years.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-25 04:12 pm (UTC)And damn it, now I'm trying to remember who had that conversation about this subject (Aly & Joss & OMWF) on their LJ and if you were there too (I think so? My memory is NOT my friend.)
Earshot? Started as Xander getting mind-reading abilities.
Eh. If it'd been Xander we wouldn't have had the call back to Band Candy: "You had sex with Giles? On top of a police car? TWICE?" One of the best funniest moments of the entire season IMO.
Was there a point to having it be Xander?
They made it about Buffy 'cause "It's always better when it's about Buffy." Find the Buffy in it, etc.
Not sure where the WTF-ery is in that, I think I'm confused (Which usually happens when I try to understand Joss's own words, so no news there.) More 'splainy, please? I'll got cookies and tea ready.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-25 05:46 pm (UTC)P/A = Passive-Aggressive.
now I'm trying to remember who had that conversation about this subject
frellingtralk had one not too long ago. I don't know if that's the one you mean, though.
Was there a point to having it be Xander?
Not really. I believe the original premise was a him doing a spell to cheat on a test... don't hold me to that. I'm sure there would have been a moral to the story, but it wouldn't have measured up to what we got.
Not sure where the WTF-ery is in that
Oh, there's no WTFery in making it all about Buffy (I like it that myself, which is why I like the later seasons more). It's in the cross-purposing statement of making the show all about Buffy then claiming it's an ensemble.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-25 05:54 pm (UTC)Actually I *think* I remember James Marsters making a comment one time about how they were all terrified but had to take part still, everyone but Alyson for some reason, and he was making some slightly passive-aggresssive comment of his own about he doesn't know how that came about. Just the way he said it gave me the impression that he really was annoyed about it, I can't remember where I read it now though
no subject
Date: 2013-04-27 02:11 am (UTC)Me: "I don't know."
Which is to say, no apologies for "butting in", that's what we're all here for! And THANK you for jogging my memory, hon! It's weird that I couldn't remember that it was your journal that conversation was on, but I could remember the color of the page.
I can imagine being annoyed, if you're putting in all that work, singing and dancing. At least Michelle asked if she could mostly dance rather than sing - wise choice in her case - and she was able to contribute her own talents in a way that fit the episode and she could still be comfortable with it. but dancing - choreographed dancing - takes a LOT of work, and some of those moves with the puppets esp and being "flung about" require very precise timing. So kudos to her.
While we're on the subject - I always wondered in the scene where Buffy dances in front of Sweet (until she nearly burns to death) if that's all Sarah or another dancer in her place near the end (where's she's whirling madly and so fast you can barely see her face) as when they use a stunt double for a fight scene? I think it's all her?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2013-04-30 06:56 pm (UTC)Ok, thanks!
I believe the original premise was a him doing a spell to cheat on a test... don't hold me to that. I'm sure there would have been a moral to the story, but it wouldn't have measured up to what we got.
Very much so! Giles' fears that Buffy will go insane and Buffy overhearing that thought is so wonderfully underplayed and devastating in it's implications - and, hey, unintentional foreshadowing re: Normal Again!
no subject
Date: 2013-04-30 09:03 pm (UTC)Normal Again is awesome.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 04:04 pm (UTC)Did he? I hadn't heard that - or that statement from her but whatever. Relating to co-workers is like any relationship, IMO, (but a tv show is probably esp intense), with the initial "honeymoon" phase that can strengthen with time or sunder; and the cast may not have been literally teenagers, ED & MT being exceptions, but Aly and Sarah were about five years older than their characters? So still at the age where we're forming our identities.
sarcasm doesn't translate to text well
Alas. That's why reading Joss' statements in print can often be head-scratchy. (And even live - I've seen the video on YouTube of AH "apologizing" to Ellen DeGeneres and I don't know the context and don't watch the show, but I have no idea if she's being straight or sarcastic.)
Fox produced Buffy (and Angel). WB paid them the rights to air it for 1-5 (which Fox was actually losing money on). After S5, WB didn't want to pay the higher fee, so UPN took over.
Understand now, thanks!
Yup.
Crap.