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red_satin_doll
"You're standing at the mouth of Hell. And it's about to open up." *
***
"I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared.
I'm standing on the mouth of Hell and it's going to swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." **
* Joss Whedon
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
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Date: 2013-04-30 06:56 pm (UTC)Ok, thanks!
I believe the original premise was a him doing a spell to cheat on a test... don't hold me to that. I'm sure there would have been a moral to the story, but it wouldn't have measured up to what we got.
Very much so! Giles' fears that Buffy will go insane and Buffy overhearing that thought is so wonderfully underplayed and devastating in it's implications - and, hey, unintentional foreshadowing re: Normal Again!
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Date: 2013-04-30 09:03 pm (UTC)Normal Again is awesome.
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Date: 2013-04-30 09:52 pm (UTC)I was just looking at screencaps for Earshot and NA and there's a surprising amount of parallels in just the visuals; I plan to have a little fun with it of the pseudo picspammy kind.
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Date: 2013-04-30 10:04 pm (UTC)I don't do favorite eps lists either, really. I tend to go with favorite episode titles and eps I think are overrated. Favorite method of vamp disposal, etc.
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Date: 2013-05-01 06:01 pm (UTC)So what are your favorite methods of vamp disposal? I assume you mean killing them as opposed to "dust disposal". ;)
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Date: 2013-05-01 09:15 pm (UTC)Buffy doesn't do dust disposal. Always slaying vamps outdoors? Not a coincidence. :P
Anyway, car door beheading (AtW), holy water switcheroo (Helpless), barbed wire (Showtime) would be in my top 3. Then there are my top 3 badass Buffy scenes: the fight in Anne, raining death down on the ubervamps in End of Days and the alley scene in ItW. Oh, and punching a hole right through the demon in Normal Again.
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Date: 2013-05-03 12:57 am (UTC)*snort* You've read Gabrielleabelle's meta, "Buffy and Carpet Cleaning"? http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/280698.html
Anyway, car door beheading (AtW), holy water switcheroo (Helpless), barbed wire (Showtime) would be in my top 3. Then there are my top 3 badass Buffy scenes: the fight in Anne, raining death down on the ubervamps in End of Days and the alley scene in ItW. Oh, and punching a hole right through the demon in Normal Again.
The only one of those I don't love to little bitty pieces is the scene in ITW. I find it uncomfortable and I think I'm supposed to; it's Buffy giving in to her own (justifiable) rage ("the subtext is rapidly becoming text"); in Western movies, shooting an unarmed person in the back is usually the action of the coward or the villain; but it also reminds me of Oz's word "Run" to Tara in New Moon Rising. Who is speaking - Oz warning Tara to get away, or the wolf teasing his prey with a short "head-start" when he knows she can't outrun him? Buffy's headnod has something of that to it.
But your other choices? Oh hell YES. I just rewatched NA btw and yes, that entire scene is awesome - rising up beneath the stairs (RESOLVE FACE!), the oddly graceful windmill action of her left arm as her right hand goes through it's chest (which always reminds me of Primeval and Adam), then that shot of her with her hand covered in goop but she is still so fucking ridiculously elegant somehow. Actually I could do a list of my favorite Buffy hand-shots (NOT including Spike or one of her other lovers, cause that's it's own damn category) but I can only think of a couple: NA, & Primeval (holding her hand up and turning the bullet into doves, and tearing Adam's heart out.) Maybe Bargaining, actually - thrusting her hand up through the soil. And pretty much every single time she runs her fingers through Dawn's hair, for some reason.
This is fun, I'll have to think of some more now! You're ruining me you know.
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Date: 2013-05-03 07:46 am (UTC)Oh, I know what you mean. It's uncomfortable because it's a rare time a slaying is personal, but it never bothered me too much because Sandy (I think that was her name) didn't go into that alley to give Buffy a backrub. She and a group of others cornered her en masse with the intent to kill her, were given the chance to walk away and didn't. She didn't run away because she was harmless; she ran away because they lost. So yeah, doesn't bother me much.
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Date: 2013-05-03 03:41 pm (UTC)She and a group of others cornered her en masse with the intent to kill her, were given the chance to walk away and didn't.
Fair enough. I'll have to watch that scene again sometime (I really don't know that I want to watch that ep again - ugh.) It still felt a little unsavory though - and I think it's meant to although they filmed it to look "cool"? I guess another signpost along Buffy's journey into her increasing heart of darkness? (That was not only a mixed metaphor but a badly phrased one, sorry.) She's fooled vamps before to gain advantage but never done that or does so again in the entire series.
Oh and btw - your list on vamp disposal? I liked Buffy's use of a cymbal in The Harvest, and I don't know if this counts but the vampire who gets dusted in mid-air by Faith-in-Buffy in WAY? Awesome.
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Date: 2013-05-03 07:47 pm (UTC)Oh, I don't think the final staking is supposed to look cool. They flashback and we're meant to see it as kind of mean, but like I said I don't have much issue. Certainly it's no more mean than staking Ford before he even unearths.
I'd forgotten about the cymbal one.
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Date: 2013-05-03 08:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 09:04 pm (UTC)Funny you should mention it because it fits the episode where we're supposed to take things one way, but it just doesn't work well. We are supposed to think Xander is giving out some sage wisdom and Riley is The One Who Got Away when it really just comes off like he's a dickhead.
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Date: 2013-05-07 12:07 am (UTC)That's exactly what my interpretation of it was.
I do think that the notion that Xander is "always right" is undermined in Selfless when Buffy finally mentions his lie in Becoming (not yet realizing it's a lie); I can see how watching that in real time would be frustrating but it worked for me because it took Xander a long time to at least be able to face the fact that he hurt Buffy, whatever his intentions were; that good intentions aren't enough by themselves. (And I'm surprised by how much of "mainstream" fandom will swear up and down that jealousy had NOTHING to do with it whatsoever. Riiiight.) I think this keys into a lot of the show's themes but particularly the late seasons; everyone had their reasons and "meant well" in S6, but right intention without action or vice-versa isn't enough.
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Date: 2013-05-07 08:53 am (UTC)That's exactly what my interpretation of it was.
That again curls back to the life of the author discussion. For a long time I was under the notion that it was largely Xander projecting his own issues with Anya onto Buffy. He does, after this, go right to her. Then I hear interviews and...I don't know? Sometimes I wonder if the folks at ME are liars or just really bad writers because it seems like most of the time what they say they were writing isn't what was on screen.
do think that the notion that Xander is "always right" is undermined in Selfless when Buffy finally mentions his lie in Becoming (not yet realizing it's a lie); I can see how watching that in real time would be frustrating but it worked for me because it took Xander a long time to at least be able to face the fact that he hurt Buffy, whatever his intentions were; that good intentions aren't enough by themselves. (And I'm surprised by how much of "mainstream" fandom will swear up and down that jealousy had NOTHING to do with it whatsoever. Riiiight.
Selfless is another of those episodes where I think fandom largely missed the point (along with Fool For Love and others). It's an Anya episode, but also a Buffy one because both womens' purposes cross. Anya's forced to do her job as is Buffy. Buffy's "work" is a core theme in 1-5 of Season 7.
I think this keys into a lot of the show's themes but particularly the late seasons; everyone had their reasons and "meant well" in S6, but right intention without action or vice-versa isn't enough.
Yup. The road to hell and all that. It's a major theme in S5 of AtS, too. Which is a huge, massive problem I have with those friggin' comic books because they outright say the opposite.
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Date: 2013-05-08 08:00 pm (UTC)Selfless is another of those episodes where I think fandom largely missed the point (along with Fool For Love and others). It's an Anya episode, but also a Buffy one because both womens' purposes cross. Anya's forced to do her job as is Buffy. Buffy's "work" is a core theme in 1-5 of Season 7.
YES to all of this.
Which is a huge, massive problem I have with those friggin' comic books because they outright say the opposite.
I take it you mean whitewashing Angel's actions because goodness, the poor guy had the best intentions, he really did. (So let's let all the blame and shit fall on Buffy's head because she's a stupid girl with stupid hair and everyone knows she's a bitch anway.)
I'm paraphrasing, of course. (Gee, do I sound bitter?)
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Date: 2013-05-08 08:21 pm (UTC)YES to all of this.
Glad you agree. It get so maddening sometimes. It's like, I watch FFL--great episode--go online and it all about how we're supposed to sympathize with the guy who just spent the last hour gloating over killing two young women and Buffy's the huge bitch for the beneath me line. Um, no.
take it you mean whitewashing Angel's actions because goodness, the poor guy had the best intentions, he really did
Yeah. And in the Willow comic, the writer explicitly states that there are only good and evil intentions and that is what is important.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-08 09:09 pm (UTC)RIGHT? I mean, WTF? (I feel the same way about Crush actually - I was creeped out by the torture porn imagery, but that last image is of Spike utterly perplexed that she's shut the door in his face and the feeling I get is again, we're supposed to feel for him, not her.) That may not even been what the writers even intended but that's what came across to me, at least visually. JM is almost too damn good an actor.
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Date: 2013-05-09 11:18 am (UTC)Oh, I don't think we're intended to feel for him. Crush was written by David Fury who was at the time pretty skeptical of Spike and his fanbase. I'm sure you've heard of the infamous serial killer in prison fan incident.
I think it's just a genuine response. Spike would be utterly confused and bewildered. It kind of goes back to what you said before about it being tied to the culture we live in. It's important to remember that while Spike has a huge and vocal fanbase, there are a lot of people who didn't care for him or perhaps more accurately, didn't care for aforementioned vocal fanbase.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-09 11:57 pm (UTC)No, I have not. Care to share?
I think it's just a genuine response. Spike would be utterly confused and bewildered.
Point. I'm still not sure if that's the case (what you said about DF), that they then really thought about the fact that the LAST image of the episode is Spike's bewildered expression. I remember being horrified by the chains and so forth and the torture porny props at the time, but a year later the only thing I can remember if that look on his face as the door closes. (I was just looking at some screencaps for Reptile Boy btw - another episode I"d willfully forgotten - and the imagery at one point is almost exactly identical - Buffy chained up in a cave, etc. It's almost funny in a way except it's still kind of gross too. Like, oh look at what evil things men are capable of - now let's enjoy the sight of Buffy in a slip of a dress, chained up and screaming! Yeah, no, thanks.)
It kind of goes back to what you said before about it being tied to the culture we live in.
Yep.
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Date: 2013-05-10 02:30 pm (UTC)Really? Fury 'caused a great stir when he called a Spike fan (whom you know) serial killer lovers. He was forced to apologize for it. Suffice to say, up until and including LMPTM, he was not the biggest fan of Spike. He changed his mind later.
You're right about it being the final image. I don't know if it was simply them not thinking of it or not. It's scripted that way. I have to say I don't care for the way fandom plays it all off as funny. I can't quite remember my initial reaction to that episode, but I don't remember enjoying it that much. One thing that stuck out to me and still does is the one slug line...
He rises and crosses to her. She beckons to him again to come even closer. He does. Then she whispers to him, intimately.
BUFFY
Spike... The only chance you had
with me was when I was unconscious.
Spike registers his disappointment. Why hadn't he thought of that? Then, his rage building, he ROARS:
It just colors everything for me.
Like, oh look at what evil things men are capable of - now let's enjoy the sight of Buffy in a slip of a dress, chained up and screaming!
Made even worse by the moral of the story being that you shouldn't lie and go to parties.
sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 04:11 pm (UTC)No I really did not know that - I assume you mean back in the day, rather than recently? (Darn you for stoking my curiosity.)
Then, his rage building, he ROARS:
What does he roar? Is there something missing here? (I really do not want to go back and watch that ep.) It's weird, that "why didn't he think of that"? Hasn't that been pretty damn clear from the get-go? Or are we to assume that Spike (or his demon) is either stupid or has some extreme memory problems? Of course, he takes her beating him in DT as a sign of affection (Lovers Walk) "I'll chain her up and torture her until she loves me again." So, IDK.
I was really suprised to go to some *ahem* Spuffy or late-seasons orientated LJ's that claimed a largely feminist framework and people LOVED Crush, which as I say horrified me with it's imagery of Buffy in chains. But then again that image shows up in a LOT of fanfic. Not a majority (I guess?) but I'm surprised at the fics I stumble over where Buffy is captured, tied up, tortured etc - and Spike either watches and/or rescues her. That sort of stuff I found in dimestore novels from the 1960's and 1970's, and in horror movies (the women are raped and tortured, the men either killed quickly and/or forced to watch their girlfriends being raped, etc) and - NO. Buffy is the HERO, damnit.
I was actually sort of shocked at first when I found a fic from
Made even worse by the moral of the story being that you shouldn't lie and go to parties.
*SMH* If I bang my head against hard objects out of frustration any more I'll have a seizure. So let's not and say we did, 'kay.
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 04:41 pm (UTC)Oh, no, that was back during Crush. Horrible thing to say. Can't help but wonder what some people were seeing in Spike back then though. Remember this was first airing and fans had no clue about following storylines. Intervention had not aired or anything like that. So I can't really blame the writers for being baffled that fans were "siding" with Spike at that time, but still, you can't insult your fanbase. Like I said in that one discussion in my LJ, the writers and fans were too close together during S5 and S6. I'm of the opinion that interactions should be kept to a minimum.
What does he roar?
He literally roars, then goes into his rant about why those bitches torture him so. What colors it for me is his reaction of why didn't he think of doing anything while she was unconscious (and the subsequent cut scene from Smashed with the tazor). Just adds another layer of ick to it.
some *ahem* Spuffy or late-seasons orientated LJ's that claimed a largely feminist framework and people LOVED Crush,
Weeeell, my opinions on that are kind of controversial. Mostly 'cause I think there are a lot of those people are full of it. Some interpretations are just bizarre to me, particularly about S6 and the Spuffy therein. Sort of like the tendency for people to say "Now, I would NEVER try to blame the victim..." then, you know, go on to do exactly that.
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From:no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 09:16 pm (UTC)Please forgive the pleonasm. It's been a long day. :P
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Date: 2013-05-07 12:10 am (UTC)Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner, I've had a busy weekend and a lot of catch-up to do.
BTW - I can't stop giggling over how narrow our conversation is here on the page. thank god for inboxes.
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Date: 2013-05-07 12:19 am (UTC)Good point.
I'd forgotten about the cymbal one.
Yep. And for some reason I love the use of pool cues or long poles esp sideways or backwards - Faith in Buffy's body in WAY, Sleeper, OMWF, probably in S1 Angel? I forget.