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red_satin_doll
"You're standing at the mouth of Hell. And it's about to open up." *
***
"I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared.
I'm standing on the mouth of Hell and it's going to swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." **
* Joss Whedon
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
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no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 07:46 am (UTC)Oh, I know what you mean. It's uncomfortable because it's a rare time a slaying is personal, but it never bothered me too much because Sandy (I think that was her name) didn't go into that alley to give Buffy a backrub. She and a group of others cornered her en masse with the intent to kill her, were given the chance to walk away and didn't. She didn't run away because she was harmless; she ran away because they lost. So yeah, doesn't bother me much.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 03:41 pm (UTC)She and a group of others cornered her en masse with the intent to kill her, were given the chance to walk away and didn't.
Fair enough. I'll have to watch that scene again sometime (I really don't know that I want to watch that ep again - ugh.) It still felt a little unsavory though - and I think it's meant to although they filmed it to look "cool"? I guess another signpost along Buffy's journey into her increasing heart of darkness? (That was not only a mixed metaphor but a badly phrased one, sorry.) She's fooled vamps before to gain advantage but never done that or does so again in the entire series.
Oh and btw - your list on vamp disposal? I liked Buffy's use of a cymbal in The Harvest, and I don't know if this counts but the vampire who gets dusted in mid-air by Faith-in-Buffy in WAY? Awesome.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 07:47 pm (UTC)Oh, I don't think the final staking is supposed to look cool. They flashback and we're meant to see it as kind of mean, but like I said I don't have much issue. Certainly it's no more mean than staking Ford before he even unearths.
I'd forgotten about the cymbal one.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 08:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 09:04 pm (UTC)Funny you should mention it because it fits the episode where we're supposed to take things one way, but it just doesn't work well. We are supposed to think Xander is giving out some sage wisdom and Riley is The One Who Got Away when it really just comes off like he's a dickhead.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-07 12:07 am (UTC)That's exactly what my interpretation of it was.
I do think that the notion that Xander is "always right" is undermined in Selfless when Buffy finally mentions his lie in Becoming (not yet realizing it's a lie); I can see how watching that in real time would be frustrating but it worked for me because it took Xander a long time to at least be able to face the fact that he hurt Buffy, whatever his intentions were; that good intentions aren't enough by themselves. (And I'm surprised by how much of "mainstream" fandom will swear up and down that jealousy had NOTHING to do with it whatsoever. Riiiight.) I think this keys into a lot of the show's themes but particularly the late seasons; everyone had their reasons and "meant well" in S6, but right intention without action or vice-versa isn't enough.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-07 08:53 am (UTC)That's exactly what my interpretation of it was.
That again curls back to the life of the author discussion. For a long time I was under the notion that it was largely Xander projecting his own issues with Anya onto Buffy. He does, after this, go right to her. Then I hear interviews and...I don't know? Sometimes I wonder if the folks at ME are liars or just really bad writers because it seems like most of the time what they say they were writing isn't what was on screen.
do think that the notion that Xander is "always right" is undermined in Selfless when Buffy finally mentions his lie in Becoming (not yet realizing it's a lie); I can see how watching that in real time would be frustrating but it worked for me because it took Xander a long time to at least be able to face the fact that he hurt Buffy, whatever his intentions were; that good intentions aren't enough by themselves. (And I'm surprised by how much of "mainstream" fandom will swear up and down that jealousy had NOTHING to do with it whatsoever. Riiiight.
Selfless is another of those episodes where I think fandom largely missed the point (along with Fool For Love and others). It's an Anya episode, but also a Buffy one because both womens' purposes cross. Anya's forced to do her job as is Buffy. Buffy's "work" is a core theme in 1-5 of Season 7.
I think this keys into a lot of the show's themes but particularly the late seasons; everyone had their reasons and "meant well" in S6, but right intention without action or vice-versa isn't enough.
Yup. The road to hell and all that. It's a major theme in S5 of AtS, too. Which is a huge, massive problem I have with those friggin' comic books because they outright say the opposite.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-08 08:00 pm (UTC)Selfless is another of those episodes where I think fandom largely missed the point (along with Fool For Love and others). It's an Anya episode, but also a Buffy one because both womens' purposes cross. Anya's forced to do her job as is Buffy. Buffy's "work" is a core theme in 1-5 of Season 7.
YES to all of this.
Which is a huge, massive problem I have with those friggin' comic books because they outright say the opposite.
I take it you mean whitewashing Angel's actions because goodness, the poor guy had the best intentions, he really did. (So let's let all the blame and shit fall on Buffy's head because she's a stupid girl with stupid hair and everyone knows she's a bitch anway.)
I'm paraphrasing, of course. (Gee, do I sound bitter?)
no subject
Date: 2013-05-08 08:21 pm (UTC)YES to all of this.
Glad you agree. It get so maddening sometimes. It's like, I watch FFL--great episode--go online and it all about how we're supposed to sympathize with the guy who just spent the last hour gloating over killing two young women and Buffy's the huge bitch for the beneath me line. Um, no.
take it you mean whitewashing Angel's actions because goodness, the poor guy had the best intentions, he really did
Yeah. And in the Willow comic, the writer explicitly states that there are only good and evil intentions and that is what is important.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-08 09:09 pm (UTC)RIGHT? I mean, WTF? (I feel the same way about Crush actually - I was creeped out by the torture porn imagery, but that last image is of Spike utterly perplexed that she's shut the door in his face and the feeling I get is again, we're supposed to feel for him, not her.) That may not even been what the writers even intended but that's what came across to me, at least visually. JM is almost too damn good an actor.
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Date: 2013-05-09 11:18 am (UTC)Oh, I don't think we're intended to feel for him. Crush was written by David Fury who was at the time pretty skeptical of Spike and his fanbase. I'm sure you've heard of the infamous serial killer in prison fan incident.
I think it's just a genuine response. Spike would be utterly confused and bewildered. It kind of goes back to what you said before about it being tied to the culture we live in. It's important to remember that while Spike has a huge and vocal fanbase, there are a lot of people who didn't care for him or perhaps more accurately, didn't care for aforementioned vocal fanbase.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-09 11:57 pm (UTC)No, I have not. Care to share?
I think it's just a genuine response. Spike would be utterly confused and bewildered.
Point. I'm still not sure if that's the case (what you said about DF), that they then really thought about the fact that the LAST image of the episode is Spike's bewildered expression. I remember being horrified by the chains and so forth and the torture porny props at the time, but a year later the only thing I can remember if that look on his face as the door closes. (I was just looking at some screencaps for Reptile Boy btw - another episode I"d willfully forgotten - and the imagery at one point is almost exactly identical - Buffy chained up in a cave, etc. It's almost funny in a way except it's still kind of gross too. Like, oh look at what evil things men are capable of - now let's enjoy the sight of Buffy in a slip of a dress, chained up and screaming! Yeah, no, thanks.)
It kind of goes back to what you said before about it being tied to the culture we live in.
Yep.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-10 02:30 pm (UTC)Really? Fury 'caused a great stir when he called a Spike fan (whom you know) serial killer lovers. He was forced to apologize for it. Suffice to say, up until and including LMPTM, he was not the biggest fan of Spike. He changed his mind later.
You're right about it being the final image. I don't know if it was simply them not thinking of it or not. It's scripted that way. I have to say I don't care for the way fandom plays it all off as funny. I can't quite remember my initial reaction to that episode, but I don't remember enjoying it that much. One thing that stuck out to me and still does is the one slug line...
He rises and crosses to her. She beckons to him again to come even closer. He does. Then she whispers to him, intimately.
BUFFY
Spike... The only chance you had
with me was when I was unconscious.
Spike registers his disappointment. Why hadn't he thought of that? Then, his rage building, he ROARS:
It just colors everything for me.
Like, oh look at what evil things men are capable of - now let's enjoy the sight of Buffy in a slip of a dress, chained up and screaming!
Made even worse by the moral of the story being that you shouldn't lie and go to parties.
sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 04:11 pm (UTC)No I really did not know that - I assume you mean back in the day, rather than recently? (Darn you for stoking my curiosity.)
Then, his rage building, he ROARS:
What does he roar? Is there something missing here? (I really do not want to go back and watch that ep.) It's weird, that "why didn't he think of that"? Hasn't that been pretty damn clear from the get-go? Or are we to assume that Spike (or his demon) is either stupid or has some extreme memory problems? Of course, he takes her beating him in DT as a sign of affection (Lovers Walk) "I'll chain her up and torture her until she loves me again." So, IDK.
I was really suprised to go to some *ahem* Spuffy or late-seasons orientated LJ's that claimed a largely feminist framework and people LOVED Crush, which as I say horrified me with it's imagery of Buffy in chains. But then again that image shows up in a LOT of fanfic. Not a majority (I guess?) but I'm surprised at the fics I stumble over where Buffy is captured, tied up, tortured etc - and Spike either watches and/or rescues her. That sort of stuff I found in dimestore novels from the 1960's and 1970's, and in horror movies (the women are raped and tortured, the men either killed quickly and/or forced to watch their girlfriends being raped, etc) and - NO. Buffy is the HERO, damnit.
I was actually sort of shocked at first when I found a fic from
Made even worse by the moral of the story being that you shouldn't lie and go to parties.
*SMH* If I bang my head against hard objects out of frustration any more I'll have a seizure. So let's not and say we did, 'kay.
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 04:41 pm (UTC)Oh, no, that was back during Crush. Horrible thing to say. Can't help but wonder what some people were seeing in Spike back then though. Remember this was first airing and fans had no clue about following storylines. Intervention had not aired or anything like that. So I can't really blame the writers for being baffled that fans were "siding" with Spike at that time, but still, you can't insult your fanbase. Like I said in that one discussion in my LJ, the writers and fans were too close together during S5 and S6. I'm of the opinion that interactions should be kept to a minimum.
What does he roar?
He literally roars, then goes into his rant about why those bitches torture him so. What colors it for me is his reaction of why didn't he think of doing anything while she was unconscious (and the subsequent cut scene from Smashed with the tazor). Just adds another layer of ick to it.
some *ahem* Spuffy or late-seasons orientated LJ's that claimed a largely feminist framework and people LOVED Crush,
Weeeell, my opinions on that are kind of controversial. Mostly 'cause I think there are a lot of those people are full of it. Some interpretations are just bizarre to me, particularly about S6 and the Spuffy therein. Sort of like the tendency for people to say "Now, I would NEVER try to blame the victim..." then, you know, go on to do exactly that.
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 05:18 pm (UTC)Oh exactly - and you know my opinion on the comics re: my sense that Joss is somehow satirizing fandom (or rather fanwankery and fanfiction tropes like "Buffy saves the universe through her vagina"? Actually his explanation regarding Tara's death and his reaction to the fans was pretty damn dismissive, so It's not like I expect maturity from the man.) Even if Fury thought it why in the hell would he say it?
What colors it for me is his reaction of why didn't he think of doing anything while she was unconscious (and the subsequent cut scene from Smashed with the tazor). Just adds another layer of ick to it.
God yes - and I think you're the only person who has mentioned the cut scene from Smashed back to me? I'm usually the only one whose mentioning it and linking to it to other people. I've seen discussions of Smashed from even a couple of years ago and "what did Spike intend?" (and some pretty bizarre interpretations - he never meant to hurt her! Her never intended to have sex with her! Um, excuse me? Have we forgotten Crush and FFL and the way love, sex and death are intwined.) I'm really shocked it's so rarely mentioned; I don't know how old Buffyworld is but the script is RIGHT there. (But then again nobody mentions the deleted ending of Smashed either, I stumbled on it randomly on YouTube; I would think people would be all over it. *shrugs* But maybe because it's clearly that Buffy is in a dominant position, a "top" so to speak? And women aren't supposed to be? IDK.)
Weeeell, my opinions on that are kind of controversial. Mostly 'cause I think there are a lot of those people are full of it. Some interpretations are just bizarre to me, particularly about S6 and the Spuffy therein. Sort of like the tendency for people to say "Now, I would NEVER try to blame the victim..." then, you know, go on to do exactly that.
I'm beginning to think we share the same brain. *points to my previous comments* And we both know that there are people who do that on behalf of every character. I think that understanding doesn't mean condoning - although I wonder if the line between that and blaming is thinner than I'd like to believe?
BTW and totally OT - I referred to you as a good source for the declining sales figures for the comics to
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 05:58 pm (UTC)Even if Fury thought it why in the hell would he say it?
Fury doesn't seem to have much of an internal censor. He's said some pretty snide (or honest, mileages vary depending on if you agree or not) about other things over the years, even his work on Lost.
I don't know how old Buffyworld is but the script is RIGHT there.
For Smashed, I think there's a lot of "not on screen = not canon" which I wouldn't necessarily argue with. But still the intent is stated in the script for that and I think that goes a little further than a scene that was cut. That's where you get into the murky waters of whether the author is alive or not. I think when it comes to an active part of the story (like a motivation or character stance), the author is alive.
But yeah, some are just in denial, if you want my honest opinion on that. Like people argue that Spike wouldn't have hurt that woman in the alley. No, the chip went off and as Spike himself said, it only goes off with the intent to harm. Thing is, the authors allowed it until it came to a head. I think they were too afraid of losing Buffy (perhaps it's an insight into their own flawed views of heroes?) to their own narrative.
Oh, I'm a dude. I don't know if I'm feminist or not; I just ask myself questions about the reactions I have to things and try to be aware of my own projections. I think in a lot of ways that's why I feel betrayed by Joss and his comics, because I know he knows better and is doing it anyway. Whether he's satirizing fandom or giving in to his own kinks and fetishes, it makes no difference because the result the same.
I'm not really a source for declining sales figures. I get them from comichron.
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2013/2013-04.html
They continue to drop about 500 for Buffy and 100-200 for A&F each month.
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 07:25 pm (UTC)Whether you think Spike wanted to make love to her or hurt her doesn't matter because it's been in the text not just in that season or that episode but pretty consistently since S5 esp FFL when he talks about Killing Slayers and then how he's in love with Buffy almost in the same breath. "It's the same damn thing to you vampires" and she's not wrong about that.
Spike's "philosophy" actually reminds me of fin de sicle "decadence" (Fleurs du Mal, Symbolist art, Edvard Munch, Montmarte, etc); or as a visiting Scottish professor put it when talking about the period, "sexy death".
He said it in a joking tone and I honestly don't find it very funny, because "women" (the fantasy versions) were depicted as the source of both and dark, terrifying, fascinating creatures - femme fatale, vagina dentata, and so forth. And this was occuring (1900) along the same time as the first wave of feminism - more women seeking higher education, the right to vote and so forth, which I don't think is an accident. (That's the sort of thing Joss is referring to as "reactionary blowback" in his letter "explaining" S8 - hah - but he got it terribly wrong anyway.)
Like people argue that Spike wouldn't have hurt that woman in the alley. No, the chip went off and as Spike himself said, it only goes off with the intent to harm.
If we had to list every such example we'd be here all day. Possibly an entire weekend. Spike would never hurt anyone? Never raped anyone? HUH? *SMH*
Thing is, the authors allowed it until it came to a head. I think they were too afraid of losing Buffy (perhaps it's an insight into their own flawed views of heroes?) to their own narrative.
Buffy the show or Buffy the character?
Oh, I'm a dude. I don't know if I'm feminist or not; I just ask myself questions about the reactions I have to things and try to be aware of my own projections.
Oh I'd definitely say you are. "The radical notion that women are people too" - that's the simplest version. It doesn't mean anti-male, and for me there's no fancy theoretical framework to it. It's intuitive. And it's amazing how few people are aware of their projections. That's really admirable that you try, so kudos.
I think in a lot of ways that's why I feel betrayed by Joss and his comics, because I know he knows better and is doing it anyway. Whether he's satirizing fandom or giving in to his own kinks and fetishes, it makes no difference because the result the same.
PREACH
I had no idea about comichron, so thanks for the link!
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-05-10 08:04 pm (UTC)I don't mean just that, but regarding why fans rarely talk about the incidents you mentioned--what happened after the floor gave way in Smashed, the crypt scene. They're not talked about because they weren't in the show? Just guessing. There are dailies of the extended ending of Smashed, btw.
"It's the same damn thing to you vampires" and she's not wrong about that.
Oh, totally. His fantasies, "the slayer likes it rough" and so on. While I think the AR was poorly done, I've always rolled by eyes at the suggestion that it was OOC. The whole season is rife with the guy not taking no for an answer. Like you (and Buffy) said, love and pain and sex and death, it's all the same damned thing.
But we live in a fandom where threats of death are seen as shippery.
but he got it terribly wrong anyway
Yup. Not least of which because the story itself basically says that the "blowback" is justified and natural. It's one thing to portray something, but he reinforces it.
Buffy the show or Buffy the character?
I think Buffy the character. Or maybe they just cut it for time; I don't know, but I just don't think they'd have felt the need for the AR if they'd have left the Smashed scene in. I just wonder if they felt they might be making a misstep to have Buffy have sex with a guy who had such intentions.
"The radical notion that women are people too" - that's the simplest version.
That's how I try to think. Just seems to me that labeling something feminist because it aligns with a specific person's ideal is doing the same thing. Too many people think freedom should be limited to people agreeing with them.
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-06-03 04:59 pm (UTC)Hmm. If I'm reading you correctly, I'm sorry if I've given off the impression that I demand agreement; that is certainly not the case. (What I do demand is a modicum of civility on my LJ and I've been pretty firm about that. And being respectful and mindful of the fact that at the other side of one's computer is another human being.)
There are a lot of people who call themselves feminists and I certainly don't agree with everything they have to say; or they find my "feminism" wanting. That doesn't make the general ideas any less important to me. And I wasn't attempting to limit you in any way. Perhaps simply saying "Wow, you certainly show a lot of awareness about issues that are important to me and I really enjoy our conversations" will satisfy?
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-06-03 06:02 pm (UTC)Oh, certainly not. I meant in the case of what freedom is, some people seem to think it extends only so far as they're own views of it. So you see a lot of people being labeled "not really feminist" because their views don't align with a standard measure. The idea that someone would of their own free will choose to be different never occurs to them.
Re: sorry, I had to edit my reply 'cause I forgot something
Date: 2013-06-04 05:07 pm (UTC)I remember a copy of Ms Magazine while I was - in college, I think? With Gloria Steinem, bell hooks, Urvashi Vaid, and maybe one other women on the cover, and they cover tag "Feminists Don't Agree about everything - who says they have to?"
And I wondered, who said they did to begin with? (Then I started analyzing the relative position of each of the women on the cover to one another and what that MEANT. Remember, college student.)
As my friend Kendra said to me one time "Everyone has their own politics." Our opinions rarely mesh 100% with any given "party line" (and I tend to be suspicious of those who do, it implies to me a lack of free thinking.)
no subject
Date: 2013-05-03 09:16 pm (UTC)Please forgive the pleonasm. It's been a long day. :P
no subject
Date: 2013-05-07 12:10 am (UTC)Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner, I've had a busy weekend and a lot of catch-up to do.
BTW - I can't stop giggling over how narrow our conversation is here on the page. thank god for inboxes.
no subject
Date: 2013-05-07 12:19 am (UTC)Good point.
I'd forgotten about the cymbal one.
Yep. And for some reason I love the use of pool cues or long poles esp sideways or backwards - Faith in Buffy's body in WAY, Sleeper, OMWF, probably in S1 Angel? I forget.