Quick quick now!

[red_satin_doll]

1) The deadline is tomorrow, Friday the 20th at midnight for  both otherworldlyric challenge #166 , "Easy Way Out" by Gotye, and slayerstillness challenge 20 "Love Song for a Vampire. More entries are needed - and I'm sitting both of these out, so don't look at me. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the pretties this time around.

And just in case you're easily confusable - a.k.a. "moi" - OWL is the multifandom icontest where you have to use at least two consecutive words from the lyrics of the challenge song. SS is strictly Buffyverse (btvs/ats) and icons can have text or not.  Also, SS is the one that opens the entry and voting threads after the winners have been announced. Which can be fun...or kinda awkward, depending. I actually kind of like it, but wait until an icon I'm sure is gonna win loses big time. Then we'll see what pennywhistle I'm tooting with.)

2) A little bird in fandom (thank you little bird!) informed me that my blog has been rec'd by "snowdropsandtigers" on tumblr.

"On a relevant—yet off-topic—note, it occurs to me that I want to recommend a blogger to follow, in case that might help and you don’t know of her. She’s on LJ and she’s very much a Buffy fan first and Spuffy shipper second, and gives love to the other characters too: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/  I’m kind of terrible and lurk much more than talk, but I’ve been reading her meta—and the meta she links to—for a while and find it all really lovely."

And I'm just - what do I say except THANK YOU? I don't know who they - who you - are, but I'm really incredibly flattered by your kind words.  I would love to thank snowdropsandtigers (what a wonderful, evocative penname!) but I haven't a tumblr account so - THANK YOU SO MUCH, whoever you are.

And also, what they said about shipping is extremely relevant to my own thoughts of late:

"I’ve experienced that. Unfortunately, I’ve also experienced other fandoms being pretty much the same. The ones I’ve gotten into after getting into Buffy in 2005 do the same things frequently (ship wars; whitewashing characters, usually dudes; distorting characterization/valuing characters mainly for ships, especially with female characters; drama between the fans themselves.).....It burns one out."

That's pretty much the nutmeat of a meta I've been wanting to write on the subject so all I can say at the moment is - ME TOO. Or, WORD. (Is that even a "thing" anymore, that use of "word"? I don't know. You tell me.)

Comments

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I've been reading a bunch of French post-structuralists the past couple weeks, and I think I understand the problem with fandom: we over-identify with our favorites (be it ship, character, show, whatevs), so when someone insults that ship/character/show, we take it as a personal blow. de Certeau (the guy I've been reading the most) has this thing about "strategies" and "tactics" - strategies are the ways "the system" or "the man" or hegemony makes us conform to the dominant narrative, and tactics are developed by individuals to navigate those strategies. We are given a media narrative and told the strategic meaning by the dominant culture. You can "buy in" to the message given, or you can deconstruct it and take what meaning you want from it.

Fandom is a tactic against the strategies of mass media. Fans say "Thanks for your masculinist narrative, but I'm going to ship Kirk/Spock and create my own narrative." This slash shipping is a tactic meant to navigate the strategy of the masculinist narrative. Another tactic is in picking and choosing what we identify with. In Harry Potter, it can be what house you're in or what you ship. I am a troubled Ravenclaw shipping Tomione like it's nobody's business, you can be a Gryffindor shipping Cho Chang and Minerva McGonagall. Likewise with Buffy fandom. I am a late-season, Buffy-centric Spuffy shipper. I identify with the B-Team of Spike, Dawn, Anya and Tara more than Giles, Xander and Willow. I use these identifiers as my tactic to make meaning of mass media - they become who I am and how I see myself.

So when someone insults Buffy, I want to get into their face about it, because insulting Buffy is like insulting me. The conversation snowdropsandtigers was commenting on was about how shippers see the entire series through their shipper-shaped lenses. My answer? OF COURSE THEY DO! The thing they identify with most in the show is that particular relationship, so of course it's going to color the way they see the show. What bothers me is when people dismiss shippers as all being "problematic" or "troublesome" or "the reason why fandom is so terrible."

Here's my line of thinking: I've been known to get up in people's grill about particular ships and characters. Disliking these ships and characters (I'll leave what these ships and who these characters are up to the reader) is also part of how I differentiate myself from other mass consumers - it's part of my identity as much as being a late-season Buffy-centric Spuffy shipper is. So when I say something passionate against said ship or character, I'm saying it because something fundamental inside me objects to them.

So this brings us to ship wars. You have people who over-identify with ship A, which goes counter to those who over-identify with ship B. "A" shippers object to ship B because we're all rapist lovers (was that too specific? Okay, we're all bad people who like problematic characters). When "A" shippers and "B" shippers meet in discourse, of course there's going to be conflict. I think it's extremely naive to believe that two groups of people who firmly believe and identify with two contrasting things won't have some conflict.

That doesn't mean we dismiss shippers completely - I know some of the people in the conversation would be the first ones out of the gate with a chainsaw if their favorite was dismissed.

WE ALL OVER IDENTIFY WITH OUR FAVORITES. It's how we differentiate ourselves from every single other mass media consumer. When I write my list of fandoms and ships on my tumblr page, I'm making a declaration about who I am. So it really annoys me when people place all the blame about fandom conflict on shippers. If your favorite was threatened, wouldn't you rally to support them?

So yeah. I support the shippers because they have every right to identify with what they end up identifying with. That doesn't give them (or me) the right to be a jackass about it, but shippers shouldn't be looked at as some lesser being because they're distinguishing identifiers is a romantic relationship.

I think I may have lost myself in this, but do you get my point? I'm not even sure what my point originally was.

[endeni]

Oh, wow, that was quite a witty and well thought out comment! *_*

[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

Okay, that is easily the finest and most elegant defense of shipping I've ever read. I think I might build a shrine to you.


Gabrielle

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

I think what a lot of people (like me) find so distasteful about shipper wars is that the biggest are between to het relationships, with a girl oscillating from ship to ship. The big shipper wars - BAngel/Spuffy and DElena/StElena - that I am familiar with are like this: they take the main female and create a scenario in which the fandom conversation isn't "wow what an interesting female character" but instead becomes: "so which guy do YOU think is better?"

Shipper wars are about the guy and dressed up to be about the actual awesome woman in the middle*.


*the one exception to this rule (that I've seen) has been either in the case of M/M vs. CANON M/F (which is troubling) or in the case of Lost Girl, which has a bisexual protagonist.

I don't have any problem with shippers. I love them I think they are cute.

I have A GIANT PROBLEM with fandom IGNORING female characters for the sake of "which GUY is BETTER" debates that are completely pointless.

Angel and Spike are BOTH pretty terrible people in their own ways.
Stefan and Damon are EQUALLY gross in their behavior towards Elena and the Universe.
Mason and Lauren are BOTH co-dependent and neither present a very good relationship alternative to Bo.

The shipper wars neglect actual character development aside from het (or m/m) pairings and RARELY take into consideration the Female's place and desires. The conversation very often comes down to a shouting match about which guy is more deserving... and that's just so frustrating to watch.

I think your thoughts about shipping being a part of one's identity are beautiful.

But as a deconstructionist myself, I'd also really like fandom to start questioning WHY there is a division between Spuffy and Bangel fans, instead of holding so tightly to that division. Right now, it's not creating a positive fandom experience.

And quite frankly, these dialogue ignore the female character at the apex of them, while decrying that everything is about her.

Bangel vs. Spuffy is about Angel vs. Spike

And quite frankly, I don't care. I care about Buffy. I care about Elena. And Bo and Allison and Lydia and Zoe and Lemon and all the ladies.

It's really difficult to create a positive feminist space when the dialogue is so OVERLY concerned with which guy our ladies are boning.

Ship what you like. ID yourself how you like...

... but I'm still wondering why the crowning definition in fandom isn't "Buffy stan" it's "Spuffy shipper" ... because I'd prefer a space where the former exceeds the latter.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I don't have any problem with shippers. I love them I think they are cute.

I have A GIANT PROBLEM with fandom IGNORING female characters for the sake of "which GUY is BETTER" debates that are completely pointless.

I think your thoughts about shipping being a part of one's identity are beautiful.

But as a deconstructionist myself, I'd also really like fandom to start questioning WHY there is a division between Spuffy and Bangel fans, instead of holding so tightly to that division. Right now, it's not creating a positive fandom experience.

And quite frankly, these dialogue ignore the female character at the apex of them, while decrying that everything is about her.

Bangel vs. Spuffy is about Angel vs. Spike

And quite frankly, I don't care. I care about Buffy. I care about Elena. And Bo and Allison and Lydia and Zoe and Lemon and all the ladies.

... but I'm still wondering why the crowning definition in fandom isn't "Buffy stan" it's "Spuffy shipper" ... because I'd prefer a space where the former exceeds the latter.

THIS THIS THIS ALL OF THIS - and you just wrote my effin' meta FOR ME, Kelsey, thank you very much!

I'm not "anti-shipper" - shipping isn't the primary lens by which I view the series, it's one of many.

I'm not against any one shipping character A with characters x, y and/or z. Ship whomever you like. Write a good, plausible story that doesn't bash the female character - that doesn't bash anyone for the sake of your favorite - and I'm good. Love who you love.

I'm AGAINST all the things you call out. Period.

And the patterns are the same across the board with all factions of shipping - and every group of shippers thinks the others are wrong and completely different to themselves. And that isn't the case at all.

It certainly isn't exclusive to Bangels and Spuffies. You want to see some genuine meanness towards Buffy? Read some non-canon ship fics: Buffy/Giles, Buffy/Xander. There are exceptions but by and large those fics exist not because the writer likes both characters, but because "that bitch didn't pay enough attention to/wasn't nice enough to my favorite guy. I'll fix that!"

My solution? Don't read those fics, back out of them when I see it coming, support authors who write things I enjoy - that are balanced and truthful and fair to both partners because they are genuinely interested in both - IT CAN BE DONE.

And keep writing & talking about the characters I love - keep the focus on who and what I love : Buffy, Joyce, Tara, Dawn, the interelationships of female characters, parent-child dynamics, what have you. If I love Buffy then I need to pay attention to all of her relationships, not reduce her to the dimestore novel romantic heroine she never was.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I'm of two minds about this: if we say shipper wars dismiss female characters, are we dismissing fans who identify with the males involved? You're completely right that a lot of shipping comes down to guy A vs. guy B, but there are people out there who identify with the guys more than the female at the center of the triangle (this is the point where I wonder why there can't be more shows like Lost, because they handled the triangle by making it a better square).

I once had the best conversation with a female slash fan, who said she identifies with male characters more because she wants to live the masculine narrative. She doesn't identify with Molly Hooper, she identifies with Sherlock Holmes. She does't ship Molly/Sherlock, she ships Watson/Sherlock. She said it was the same thing with Teen Wolf and Supernatural and all those shows where the slash fans seem to silence the fans of the het relationships. I told her that I'm exactly the opposite. I don't identify with male characters; I identify with female characters, so I either ship slash or femmeslash pairings.

I wasn't thinking in terms of feminist criticism when I wrote this. You're right in saying that female characters often get dismissed in shipping. I think that's because a lot of female fans identify with male characters. I don't know if this is latent misogyny, that they identify with the male characters because society values male characters over female characters, or that there's just something about the male characters that relates to them better than female characters. So while I think you're probably right, I'm also conflicted.

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

if we say shipper wars dismiss female characters, are we dismissing fans who identify with the males involved?
When those people participate in female character-bashing, slut shaming, and misogynist dialogue? Yes. I am okay with it.

The problem with the shipper-dialogue is that it is NOT female-character centric or even polite to females. Especially the shipper wars.

If you want to be a fan of Spike and debate with an Angel fan. Be my guest. (even though I think that discussion is pretty fucking pointless)

Don't drag Buffy through the mud and call it loving her.

(This is not directed towards you personally, Lex I LOVE YOU, but rather the shipper mentality as it has stood for some time now.)

if this is latent misogyny, that they identify with the male characters because society values male characters over female characters
I'd say probably a great deal of this. And also misogyny in the media industry, which gives us more varied male characters to id with.

But I mean... I only put up with this comment on media representations of females for so long. There ARE brilliant females in media culture that are not loved to the frenzied extent that male characters are. I think it's time to stop crying about how there "aren't any female characters!" and start acknowledging that we aren't caring about the ones that we have.

It took one week for there to be a Crane/Headless Horseman fic to pop up on ao3 - EVEN THO CRANE SHARES MORE SCREEN TIME WITH ABBIE. (cause fuck a woc - we only care about men)

Allison Argent just got fridged this week. I canNOT handle another conversation about how there "aren't" female characters to love. There are. There are many. Just because the PTB doesn't love them and gives them shitty storylines - doesn't mean that we should make them secondary in our "poaching" culture.

If fandom was really a culture where we 'poached' from the text and interrogated it and made it better and more thought-provoking, shouldn't the f/f fans at least match the m/m fans? OR HELL SHOULDN'T THE F/M FIC MATCH THE NUMBERS OF THE M/M? it doesn't.



Considering the vile hatred that I've seen coming from shippers of late - I'm not about to pat the community on the back and say "oh yes, you have every right to yell at people" because they don't. Shipper wars create a negative atmosphere in fandom and defending that behavior isn't going to change it or make it better.

Does it really matter at the end of the day whether you are a Bangel or a Spuffy? I have delightful friends in both camps, and while I don't always understand the Bangel siren call - I still love my friends.

And quite frankly, Spuffy isn't the end all be all ship. It's toxic and has heaps of problems.

I'd rather have a situation where shippers are able to understand and interrogate how their ships aren't perfect than hold their ship to their chest and scream at people who don't believe it is perfect sun-shiny.

They aren't.

There's no perfect relationship.

Not in the media, not in real life.

There are problems that need to be addressed at every level of media consumption and identity formation.

And a dialogue that refuses to acknowledge this or even contemplate questioning it - because HOW DARE YOU DISLIKE WHAT I LOVE - is toxic.

Disliking Spuffy or Spike doesn't mean that someone dislikes you. And probably if the conversation was more congenial, the opposing camps would be able to see that they have more in common with each other than they think.

(pt 2)

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

if we say shipper wars dismiss female characters, are we dismissing fans who identify with the males involved?
I don't care, tbh.

Call me a feminazi or something. I'll probably like it at this point. There's so much shit in media production that just ... reveals how much people don't care for women. If you are a male character's fan. Be a fan. Don't say it's about the ship - because what it is about is that you think your baby's worth is determined by the poon he scores.

And that's gross.

If shippers can completely dismiss the female on such an epic scale that I notice (and I pay no the fuck attention to this most days), then I'm all about ignoring you if you are actually in this for the guy, but pretending that you care what happens to the female. Wear your spots proudly.



((I may be really overly upset about the number of female character deaths that have occurred this year. TOO FUCKING MANY. It's only March. IT'S ONLY MARCH AND THREE OF MY FAVORITE FEMALES ON TELEVISION HAVE DIED ALREADY THIS YEAR. AND GIA. I'm so NOT in the mood to baby shippers OR male characters. There's too many male characters. Give me a fandom that doesn't give a shit about male characters. Give me so many female characters that the F/F fic on AO3 outweighs the M/M fic. Give me a fandom where there is a HEALTHY dialogue about relationships and not a war that no one can win and only encourages female-bashing and slut-shaming and prioritizes male characters. Give me a fandom where shippers don't feel the need to get a pat on the back for being hateful to other groups of people based on personal preferences. Give me living, breathing female characters and STOP KILLING THEM.))

(((I am really emotional and probably shouldn't be talking about this. It's been a really hard fucking year for ladies.)))

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

(((I am really emotional and probably shouldn't be talking about this. It's been a really hard fucking year for ladies.)))

But this NEEDS to be said. Everything you've said? That's where I'm at.

Nail, head. Head, desk.

And these are exactly the patterns I identified (or was trying to) when I spoke about the way the Dawn & Spike friendship is conventionally portrayed. It's not just about sexual/romantic ships. It's the overwhelming gender-centric pattern.

Re: (pt 2)

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

I'm not usually this angry. I generally see the wars and the flame throwing and I laugh and stay out of it and engage with happy people and ship my ships and not really care.

But I lost FOUR ladies in three months.

That's unconscionable.

Any dialogue right now that is pro-males in a way that becomes anti-female, I'm not about it. I don't have the patience right now. I'm at my wits' end with loss this year. Too many female characters have died.

It's the overwhelming gender-centric pattern.
What makes me so frustrated is when I'm legitimately trying to have a constructive conversation - that places women first - and because of the negativity that these gender-centric patterns upheld in shipper spaces, no conversation can even begin.
So I'm sitting there, trying to talk about how awesome a relationship dynamic is and on one hand I have the shippers who yell "YES EVERYTHING IS PERFECT ISN'T IT WONDERFUL" and on the other hand the anti-shippers screaming "YES BUT THIS OTHER THING IS SO MUCH BETTER" and then in the middle those (like yourself) who just sigh and say: "ugh this is ugly I am so put off by fandom I don't want to talk about it" and THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION can't even begin. You can't talk about the problems or the good things or engage a conversation in fandom about very much of anything, without this dynamic lingering overhead. Either with shippers frustrated that you aren't defending every bad thing a male character has ever done - or because those in the middle are tired of the "love" that is splashed all over and they don't want to even think about how it COULD be interesting if looked at more interrogatively.

It's a completely toxic system that profits from stopping conversation and prioritizing DA MALE.

And no. I'm done. I don't want it in my fandom spaces anymore.

I think if fandom had an uprising and there were more female-centric conversations and people started prioritizing females, eventually TPTB would notice.

Women die in rapid rates on Supernatural and fandom cheers. Because how DARE a female come between Wincest or Destiel? SHOCKING AND APPALLING! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! It's not a 1:1 ratio. But shippers need to change their habits first. Because media is a long-term battle and if we change OUR dialogue, eventually the rest of the world will take note.


(Forever in mourning.)

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

But I lost FOUR ladies in three months.

That's unconscionable.

Yes it is. I've spent 40+ plus years watching horrible bullshit - and it's unconscionable that we're no better off than we were four decades ago in some respects.

But then again I watched Tara die only two years ago and I'm still in mourning. I refuse to watch AtS for that very reason. I will not watch them destroy Cordy and Fred. I finally had to turn off Bones this year - a silly bit of entertainment that happened to have three dynamic, ethnically and racially diverse professional women in the sciences, and focused on them in their careers - because they turned the female protagonist into a de facto moron. They didn't kill her but they broke her. And people are ok with that.

The fact that those ladies existed at all is something to celebrate. The fact that "fridging" is still considered ok as a "plot device" is horrifying.

and then in the middle those (like yourself) who just sigh and say: "ugh this is ugly I am so put off by fandom I don't want to talk about it" and THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION can't even begin.

I don't want to misunderstand you too fast - but I feel like I'm being somewhat misrepresented here. Certainly I've been called worst things - I've been labeled an "abuse apologist" because I love Buffy but ship Buffy and Spike in S7. I've been called a Willow hater because I dared question someone's position that Tara was partly responsible for Willow's treatment of her in S6. I've been told I'm an angry bitch and not angry enough.

But I'm not sure what you mean here. I get angry and I'm told to shut up. I try to love, I pick my battles carefully so I don't burn out and stay in the fight the distance, and it's - somehow not enough?

those in the middle are tired of the "love" that is splashed all over and they don't want to even think about how it COULD be interesting if looked at more interrogatively.

I DO think about it - again, I feel you're mischaracterizing me here if you're lumping me "in the middle".

Yes I do know people who have dropped out of fandom because they don't have the time or energy to continue to fight the fights. Some wonderful voices are lost, and that's too bad. Everyone has to make that choice for themselves.

I'm determined to "stay in the game" - keep talking, keep writing, keep making icons, keep recommending the work by people - like yourself - who do love female characters, who speak on these issues more effectively than perhaps I can.

Because I am angry. But I don't have the elegant intellectual phrases and fancy arguments. I can't compete with that. I don't have the energy, physically or mentally, that I had twenty years ago. What I can do is talk about who I love and why, over and over. and make an effort to reconsider characters who are hard for me to love and why. And it works, in very real ways. I've seen it happen.

If that's not sufficient in someone else's judgment, well - that's what I have to give.

I think if fandom had an uprising and there were more female-centric conversations and people started prioritizing females, eventually TPTB would notice.

I agree - and that's why we do what we do here in fandom. It's why clockwork_hart1 has switched from largely shippy fic to friendship and female-oriented fic in the last year. When I talk about Joyce, I find that a character no one is "interested in" is - actually of interest to quite a few people. You've generated interest in Dawn that never existed before. It just needed ONE person to say "look again".

We are the change we want to be, even if we go about it differently.

Because media is a long-term battle and if we change OUR dialogue, eventually the rest of the world will take note.

Over four decades I've seen so many moments when I've thought "this is it, things are really starting to change". And then they backslide, and the pendulum swings back and forth, conservative to liberal and back again.

What we need is to get OUT of that pendulum swing altogether and acknowledge an entirely new paradigm. It hasn't happened yet, but I'll keep trying. I trust we are allies in this fight.

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, my shippy fic has always been few and far between. I came into the fandom as a spuffy shipper, but when I started writing, I never felt I could add anything to that place. I certainly didn't have a 36 chapter epic to tell like some of my favourite authors, and I wasn't confident with pwp and still am not spuffy-wise.

I think maybe the first fic I wrote in the fandom was a Save Fred fic because her death hurt me so much that I wasn't able to just let it go. Then I started trying to post weekly to the fantas magoria challenges, which was on Ats s5, hence why a lot of my early fic focuses on Angel, Spike and Wes (and Illyria, actually).

I played with the boys after that because they had become easier to write, and it was after that the female centric stuff came in because it was honestly what I found more interesting. I challenged myself to write it and then became addicted to studying their complexities in a way that I hadn't felt with the boys and hence why now they're more dear to my heart. But it wasn't until I branched out that I wanted to read other People’s thoughts and feelings about these things, and now that's what my fandom life is devoted to.

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I played with the boys after that because they had become easier to write

I think that relates to what drove the first Star Trek fanfic Kirk/Spock shippers - they wanted to write about interesting characters and relationships, but there were no interesting female characters to be found. So they subverted canon.

Nowadays there ARE rich, interesting female characters but they are not being written in fandom about to the extent that the guys are.

I challenged myself to write it and then became addicted to studying their complexities in a way that I hadn't felt with the boys and hence why now they're more dear to my heart.

I think I'm "lucky" (?) in that I never had to make that "translation" or mental leap. The ladies were ALWAYS were it was at for me. The opposite is the hard part for me - I'm not anti-guy, I have brothers and uncles and male friends and I love them. But the interest just isn't there for me.

Surrogate father-daughter relationships are an exception: Doctor #7 and Ace, Satine and Zidler, Jordan Cavenaugh and Garret Macy (Garret is one of the few male characters I really love), Buffy and Giles.

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

It wasn't that the girls were less interesting to me, but more that they were challenging because they were so rich and diverse, I didn't want to fuck it up and I already HAD the experience writing the guys. I just found them even more entrancing as I explored them. i never thought I'd love Dawn and her facets in the way I do now if I hadn't started writing her - and I'm so glad I did. Thinking about it, all of the spuffy shippy fic I have written is all about character exploration and the smaller moments between them that I fell in love with.

Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I was terrified to write - or write about - Buffy because I didn't think I could do her justice, fully wrap my hands and my mind around her complexity, that I couldn't because I had too big of a Buffy-shaped blindspot, etc. I'm not sure that I've ever "got her right" or that I'll ever post the fic I've written since last September.

Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.

It's been around for several years - I don't know who made it, but penny_lane_42 was using it, and I had one spot left and HAD to snag it. It was time to bring it back out of the closet IMO.

Whoever gave me the paid account has no idea what they've done. Once upon a time I was content with 15 icons. Now 32 isn't enough - I WANT MORE, MORE DAMNIT! *lol*

Re: (pt 2)

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

The fact that "fridging" is still considered ok as a "plot device" is horrifying.
It's so gross I can't....

And ouch. I didn't know that about Bones and that makes me so sad. I'm a couple seasons behind (due to not having netflix in BKK) but I had serious over-identification ~feelings w/r/t Bones. ugh.

I feel like I'm being somewhat misrepresented here
I'm sorry. I was trying to make a general statement about shipper-fatigue. Which I have come across many, many times. And I was placing you there because I know that you have shipper-fatigue (especially with Spike/Dawn shippers). I was NOT saying that there's anything wrong with feeling this way - but that the problem is that the culture surrounding Spike/Dawn shipping (for example) has become such a toxic place that the conversations I've had with you have centered on how frustrated you are with the gendered-centrism of the conversation. Which is totally fine and valid. I understand and agree with you. And it happens all over fandom. Something pops up for me that feels really interesting that might build conversation and because of negativity produced in shipper and anti-shipper communities, conversation has a hard time starting.

THIS HAS HAPPENED TO ME MANY TIMES.

And generally I just shrug it off or ignore it. But as we are having a discussion about the toxic environment negative shippers bring to the table it would feel neglectful if I didn't mention that this sometimes happens? And that I'm more frustrated that the environment breeds this kind of fatigue than that people are justifiably frustrated.

I get angry and I'm told to shut up. I try to love, I pick my battles carefully so I don't burn out and stay in the fight the distance, and it's - somehow not enough?
Fandom is shitty. I wish there was a way that you didn't have to play tiptoe like this. It's upsetting that there's anything to be angry about and that you feel as though you need to tiptoe.

(and if I ever made you feel as though you need to tiptoe around me, I'm sorry. I know that I would rather talk about the good things than the bad most of the time, but I'm breaking into the fray because this year has been so upsetting. I'd love a scenario where Dawn/Spike dynamics aren't so frustrating for you so that we can talk about them. I'm mad at the dynamic for the sake of you - because I want you there with me. Does that make sense?)

Really these were general statements and I did not mean to direct them towards or on you at all. Except in the sense that I thought you understood shipper-fatigue?

I love that you love. I love when anyone loves. I'm so sorry that there are places of fandom that leave anyone feeling like the conversation isn't one that they can participate in because of negativity.



*sigh*

I really hope fandom starts getting it's shit together and these small changes grow and expand.

Re: (pt 2)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to reiterate that I agree with everything you say and support you in your rage because yes, the way female characters are treated in fandom is shitty. I've been just playing the devil's advocate here. The fact that women are used to serve male narratives is shitty. I don't want to be Pepper Potts. Pepper is great, but why can't a woman be Iron Man? So no argument with anything you say. I may not be as passionate as you are - and you're passionate for wonderful reasons - but I want the same female-centric narratives you want. I want women to stop being friged. I want media to pay attention to f/f ships. I want ladies to have relationships with each other that don't revolve around a man. I want Alison Bechdel to be happy with how media is portraying women. That won't be happening over night, but we can rally around stories that center on women (I got red_satin_doll watching Veronica Mars and Orphan Black, so that's a win for me).

Anyway, I just feel bad that this hurts you so much. But I'm here to support you in your pained rage.

ILY.

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Lexi there's no way we could be having this conversation to begin with if you hadn't started it, and we know you are a staunch defender of female characters. And I don't see you as any less passionate as Kelsey, or myself, or Lucy - we all express our passion in different ways and that's marvelous. we need all the voices in the room we can get - we need every single voice in the room.

Pepper is great, but why can't a woman be Iron Man?

Because (white, able-bodied) male is the default setting. I can say "we need more women storytellers" but there is no evidence that women will tell more female-centric stories (fandom is proof of that.) Meanwhile, some of my favorite f/f writers in fandom are men; the only conversation I've seen online that is respectful of Marti Noxon as a writer and artist was amongst a group of male fans. Phyllis Schafley led the charge against the ERA back in the 1970's.

So lest anyone think this about male vs female, it's not.

I've been just playing the devil's advocate here.

So - what was the argument again, really?

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm a couple seasons behind (due to not having netflix in BKK) but I had serious over-identification ~feelings w/r/t Bones. ugh.

I made it to somewhere into early S8 on Netflix and had to stop in disgust so I'm torn between wanting to tell you STOP and "keep watching, experience my pain and rage and then talk about it because IT NEEDS TO BE SAID!" clockwork_hart1 just said this on her blog: And I never saw Bones from the start...The ones that I have seen, well, they're trying for Anya-level no-people-skills-aren't-regular-people-cute and hitting calculated moron. What the glittery fuck, guys? Aren't women on TV allowed to just be intelligent? Yuck. http://clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com/20681.html?thread=316617#t316617

Her Anya-and-Xander comparison is frighteningly accurate. Yuck hardly covers it.

the conversations I've had with you have centered on how frustrated you are with the gendered-centrism of the conversation.

Which was really only a few posts in a single conversation of the many I've had; I don't think it represents everything I have to say on the subject. In any case, what I said then and what you're saying here are exactly the same things. We're just each somewhat more sensitive to certain characters; and I perhaps misread the "temperature" of the room. If you specifically said in your post that you wanted celebration and I completely missed that, then that's on me. Spike/Dawn are one of your loves, so I could have been more discrete. Your passion, your anger is my own, even if we differ on what triggers us.

conversation has a hard time starting.

how do you even start a conversation with people who don't see the problem, and/or don't think it's a problem to begin with? With people who don't want to talk and listen to one another? And we wonder why there's no peace in the Middle East.

But as we are having a discussion about the toxic environment negative shippers bring to the table it would feel neglectful if I didn't mention that this sometimes happens?

Absolutely! I just felt that I was being labeled in a way that misrepresents me, based on a handful of conversations or a couple of comments I made; just as your comments here don't represent the totality of who you are and your opinions.

I wish there was a way that you didn't have to play tiptoe like this.

I certainly understand shipper fatigue, it frustrated me for a while; so my strategy has been primarily been to "ac-cen-tu-ate the positive" as the song goes. Sometimes I still do rant, but I'm not spending all my time swimming upstream in a current that's only going to drown me. I'm digging out my own beautiful river.

if I ever made you feel as though you need to tiptoe around me, I'm sorry.

I know it wasn't ever intentional. But I DO appreciate you saying that, very much, it means a lot to me. *hugs*

because I want you there with me. Does that make sense?

Completely.

I'm so sorry that there are places of fandom that leave anyone feeling like the conversation isn't one that they can participate in because of negativity.

And I'm happy that conversations like this are happening as well. I'm happy that chasingdemons made a manip of the ladies of the verse inspired by my enthusiasm and energy as a newish fan. I'm oh so happy that you focus on Dawn the way you do and people are realizing how aweseome she is. I'm thrilled that the internet exists and all these conversations aren't happening in isolation, just a few people at a time, because the internet wasn't around and now we can talk to one another no matter where we are and that's AWESOME.

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

Give me so many female characters that the F/F fic on AO3 outweighs the M/M fic.

may I point you to the skins (uk) fandom? The f/f following is huge due to the fan preferred (and cannon to boot) lesbian super couple Naomi and Emily and all of their beauty. The series is separated into generations, and though gen 1 has more m/m due to an explicitly gay character and arguably bisexual boy who had a prolific sex scene and the extensive homoerotic subtext between the latter boy and his best friend (who sleep in the same bed, one partially and he other totally naked in an episode, and in another have a conversation featuring the dialogue "I always loved you the best"), the other generations (2&3) are mostly comprised of lesbian shippers.

All of that said, avoid the universally despised "Skins fire", part of a finale series that told the "what happens now?" stories of three main characters. To put it bluntly, the fuckers gave one half of the aforementioned super couple a fatal cancer and the fandom massacred the writers for it. If you never watch it, the mourning need be avoided.
It's disgusting how often the female characters are slain. It's fucking gross and I'm am so seriously pissed off about it. It's the reason I started writing in the first place. I wanted dynamic females, beautiful and broken and strong who I knew would make it to the end of the book/movie/episode and when life wouldn't give me them I wanted to write them myself. I'm actually looking in to writing some scripts for a few ideas I've had and pitching them to some networks because I NEED A STORY THAT MEETS MY NEEDS EVEN IF I HAVE TO DO IT MYSELF.

*climbs off soapbox

Re: (pt 2)

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

I meant this in general - but thanks for letting me know! I have S1 downloaded because I promised a friend a while back that I'd start watching Skins and this is the little push that I needed!

I'm actually looking in to writing some scripts for a few ideas I've had and pitching them to some networks because I NEED A STORY THAT MEETS MY NEEDS EVEN IF I HAVE TO DO IT MYSELF.
YES.
OKAY THIS.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

I have so many feelings about that show, you have no idea. http://clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com/20454.html

Nothing is what it seems, everyone is very broken and that's something I kind of love about it. The idyllic party scene is just a facade and the characters are very human underneath, despite how they might appear. It gets a lot darker in season 2, in fact, every second season is darker that the last except maybe s6 which IS dark but is also full of backwards characterisation and stupid plots that still makes me kind of angry. Ugh feelings.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION INDEED!!

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm actually looking in to writing some scripts for a few ideas I've had and pitching them to some networks because I NEED A STORY THAT MEETS MY NEEDS EVEN IF I HAVE TO DO IT MYSELF.

I FULLY SUPPORT THIS PLAN. Hugs, cookies, cheering, beta'ing, kicks in the butt - whatever you need.

Even if it doesn't get "greenlighted" it could be a play, a book; and nowadays making a film is becoming so much cheaper thanks to digital technology.

And thank god for the internet. I'm not sure if folks who have always had it in their lives realize what an amazing tool it can be. My friend Christine introduced me to fanfiction - she wrote Deep Space 9 fanfic that she copied and stapled herself on a mimeograph machine. Which meant that a couple of people got to see it at best.

we NEED to tell our own stories. We can't wait around for others to do it for us.

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

THIS IS SO APPRECIATED. I need to get some things written, but my ideas shift so quickly. I might start with characters rather than a story and let them take me where they need to go. I just want a thing full of beautifully flawed, funny, intelligent, mistake-making ladies that I can relate to and I want them to not die. A part of me wants to have a mixed cast and slowly kill off the male characters just to prove a point about fridging - just to see if people take notice rather than brush it off like we're expected to do when the girls die in the things we love.

My feelings are so raw right now.

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

A part of me wants to have a mixed cast and slowly kill off the male characters just to prove a point about fridging - just to see if people take notice rather than brush it off like we're expected to do when the girls die in the things we love.

But OMG you can't do that! That will mean you're a reverse sexist! How dare you! */end snark* Never mind if you're doing it to make a POINT, and not for the sake of "entertainment".

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

Well, depending on the guys in question, it might be a LITTLE entertaining...

Re: (pt 2)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

And this is where I'm supposed to click my tongue and say "bad girl"...but given all the fics I've come across because I do not support the use of rape, torture and murder against women as entertainment...even though I know you're joking.

But I won't of course.

'cause I also know that some of the people who would say just that to you have NO problem with those very things used against female characters. Who enjoy reading about torture as something sexy and will tell you it's "just fantasy". As long as it's used against women that is.

OTOH there are people who love to torture Spike, so....*shrugs*

Re: (pt 2)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I may be really overly upset about the number of female character deaths that have occurred this year. TOO FUCKING MANY. It's only March. IT'S ONLY MARCH AND THREE OF MY FAVORITE FEMALES ON TELEVISION HAVE DIED ALREADY THIS YEAR. AND GIA. I'm so NOT in the mood to baby shippers OR male characters. There's too many male characters. Give me a fandom that doesn't give a shit about male characters. Give me so many female characters that the F/F fic on AO3 outweighs the M/M fic. Give me a fandom where there is a HEALTHY dialogue about relationships and not a war that no one can win and only encourages female-bashing and slut-shaming and prioritizes male characters. Give me a fandom where shippers don't feel the need to get a pat on the back for being hateful to other groups of people based on personal preferences. Give me living, breathing female characters and STOP KILLING THEM.

This is why I'm so conflicted because I want this to happen, and I think it's latent misogyny why it doesn't.

I want to squeeze you right now and mourn all the ladies with you. I think I'm done with Teen Wolf, actually. They kill the women, and let the boys ride off into the sunset. Lydia is the only reason I have to stay now.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to let you know Lexi that I love that you brought this conversation here - it's a coffeehouse in my little home! - and please feel free to carry on. *HUGS*

Kelsey pretty much speaks for me, but I want to reiterate - it's not against you at all. The patterns she calls out are ones you haven't been guilty of, just the opposite.

It comes down to I don't hate shippers I hate the toxic atmosphere created for female characters, for fans of those female characters, for themselves and one another. Failing to have fun over what we all love and instead tearing one another apart over who "wins" who.

I'm of two minds about this: if we say shipper wars dismiss female characters, are we dismissing fans who identify with the males involved?

I'm criticizing patterns of thought and behavior I've seen at large. NEVER have I said "don't identify with male characters." Hell, I have actually fought for and defended Xander to other fans because I can see the good as well as the bad in him. He's complicated.

But I have no problem saying that I am not cool with it when shipping is used as a weapon - against characters, against women, against women's bodies, against other fans. And I'm not ok with it when I see it happen in m/m or f/f fic either, although it happens far less often.

It is entirely possible to identify primarily with Spike/Angel/Giles/Xander/whomever, and not engage in this, either IRL towards other fans, or in fanfiction etc. I have seen it done.

I think the next step is naming and linking to work that does just that. I try to support it, but maybe I haven't done enough.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I feel like I'm playing the Devil's advocate with you and Kelsey, because the both of you haven't said anything that isn't true or that I don't agree with. I just don't want to be dismissive of people who identify with male characters because then we're doing the same thing that happens when people identify with female characters.

Anyway, glad to make your journal the coffeehouse!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm not dismissing people who identify primarily with male characters wholesale. I've never suggested any such thing. Love who you love. What Kelsey said in her post is something that I noticed almost immediately when I entered fandom though, the prioritization of male characters to the point that some people will even claim the female protagonist isn't the actual protagonist.

It's not about dismissing anyone, it's identifying a larger cultural pattern.

If anything, part of he problem is the various shipping factions tearing the hell out of one another. It's funny to watch except when it isn't. I've seen conversations turn into shouting matches when the two sides are actually in agreement on an issue but goodness we can't have that can we?

It's not male-oriented fans vs female-oriented fans. the female stans are so marginalized as it is we're just trying to find a way to enter the conversation without being torn down and destroyed ourselves. I know a lot of fans who love male characters primarily, but honor the women within the story. That's what I'm trying to encourage.

And in terms of the "shippers" vs "non-shippers" that's not my war and I don't have a dog in that fight. (EVERYBODY ships somebody IMO. That's a false distinction entirely but some people believe that it exists.)

If folks feel safe discussing these issues here even if we agree to disagree, I think that's a step in the right direction and certainly something I want to encourage

*puts out fresh plate of cookies*

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Of course we over-identify with our favorites. Which to my mind means we also need to work a little harder to look past our biases and blind spots. It's very hard sometimes for me to remember what I liked or loved about Xander for instance. But I do and did. That doesn't mean I love Buffy less.

And yeah, guilty as charged: I want to get in people's grill about Buffy as well. So I try to talk about her, and what I love about her. And about her relationships with Joyce, Dawn, Tara, Faith, Willow etc. If shipping weren't already such a huge part of fandom, I'd write about Spuffy" more but honestly that's been covered. I have a lot of things to say but there is so much focus on him already out there, as you know; even by feminist fans" and anything I have to say is most likely at odds with the majority view.

I think I may have lost myself in this, but do you get my point? I'm not even sure what my point originally was.

Not exactly but I think maybe I just walked into a conversation midway through? IDK Kelsey pretty much speaks for me downthread: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/36749.html?thread=955533#t955533

I'm not anti-shippers or shipping. I'm against the patterns I see in all shipping factions, canon or non-canon, that snowdropsandtigers and Kelsey call out. I'm against ignoring the woman at the center of the story or diminishing her for the sake of DA GUY. I'm against shipping used as a weapon against a character. (And if you want to see shipping used as a weapon, check out some Giles/Buffy fic and the comments threads. I thought Spuffies hated Buffy but holy moses on a cracker.)

I'm against the competitons and emnity. I'd prefer to build bridges, but I'm not sure anyone's interesting in "the other side".

I'm against the very thing you named not long ago - that Buffy (or character) is nothing more than a prize to be won in some contest.

I don't know who is putting down or "dismissing" shippers. Ship whoever you want. Love who you love. I now read all sorts of pairings I never would have a year ago. Hell, I ship Buffy/Tara and Dawn/Faith. I can ship WIllow with pretty much anyone male or female. Have at it, have fun, & if someone needs to bash one character or whitewash the other, then I can hit the back button.

So this brings us to ship wars.

The problem to me, aside from all the things already mentioned (the patriarchial male-oriented biases, bashing strong female characters etc) is that EVERY shipping faction thinks they completely different to every other, and therefore "those other people" are weird/sick/wrong/mean/crazy and we're in the right."

But they not different to each other - they're completely the same. Everyone wants the same thing - for their beloved character X to be noticed, loved, appreciated, to "get the prize" (Buffy's body, Buffy's love, profuse apologies from every other character for faiing to see how great they always were, etc etc). For the reason you mention - we over-identify. WE ALL DO IT. And we all assume those other folks "get it wrong".

So the battle lines are drawn, the walls go up, instead of building bridges based on commonalities.

In terms of the buffyverse this is terribly ironic because one of the themes of the series, IMO, is the way characters so often separate themselves based on perceived differences with "the Other" instead of connecting with one another via commonalities. And how "the system" works to ensure those separations to control people: "one girl in all the world", human vs demon, etc.

It's in the show because it's out there in the world, and right here in fandom.

Which is too bad. It's too bad I know people who have withdrawn from fandom because their views don't fit the majority - we NEED a diversity of voices, we need those people who are iconoclasts, very badly.

And we need more love and more fun. Maybe at some point everyone can put down their arms and we can just appreciate one another.

[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

You deserve to be rec'ed. You're super fabulicious, honey!


Gabrielle

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much, hon! I don't know about "deserving" (*ok stop with the self-deprecation right now* .....)

[spikesredqueen.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I wasn't feeling up to doing the challenge at OWL this week due to being sick. But I so look forward to voting at both places!

Kudos on being rec'd! I love reading your entries, they make me think and I appreciate that!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the kind words hon!

And I just voted at OWL - so hard - and I haven't voted yet at Slayerstillness because I couldn't decide and had to think about it. Holy cheese on a cracker.

[spikesredqueen.livejournal.com]

Both icontests have so many great icons to choose from, it was incredibly difficult for me this time.

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

Congratulations Sweetie! I don't keep up much with this fandom on Tumblr, I devote it more to my other fandoms because I have found the atmosphere over there to be shaky at best with btvs stuff... Just a few not very nice opinions over there. And besides, my LJ is pretty much devoted to this fandom, as is my entire flist, so it makes sense that I keep my opinions, anger and squee for over here.

and I had the BEST idea for an icon for this round at owl, but my computer got wiped and not only are all of my screencaps gone, but some of my programs too (office is gone so I have to make documents online). It was a Warehouse 13 one with (female) HG Wells and was about her memories. I had the perfect screencap and the text fit it wonderfully, so I am muchly upset.

And if I get into an argument about the marginalization of female characters within shipping I will ramble, rant and cry a lot, so I won't. My brain agrees with that quote and I'm sure you're already aware of my thoughts so...

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I have found the atmosphere over there to be shaky at best with btvs stuff..

I have bookmarked some fantastic meta posts about btvs on tumblr - oftentimes written in response to something really horrible about Buffy or the women in general.

my LJ is pretty much devoted to this fandom, as is my entire flist, so it makes sense that I keep my opinions, anger and squee for over here.

I have a DW journal but I really don't do anything with it. I have a few friends there but nothing like I have hear. I don't have the energy to build a second "audience" there when I've got what I've got here.

I had the BEST idea for an icon for this round at owl, but my computer got wiped and not only are all of my screencaps gone, but some of my programs too (office is gone so I have to make documents online). It was a Warehouse 13 one with (female) HG Wells and was about her memories. I had the perfect screencap and the text fit it wonderfully, so I am muchly upset.

Oh NO! All of your caps? I hope you get to remake it. I feel your pain - when the desktop computer burned up and the harddrive along with it, I had a couple of meta drafts on there, including a Buffy and Dru one with images that I don't know how to recreate. Some of my stories, etc.

BTW- if you need any btvs screencaps I've got tons in my photobucket. Let me know.

My brain agrees with that quote and I'm sure you're already aware of my thoughts so...

Your latest post on your blog is a thing of terrible beauty.

[tigerpetals.livejournal.com]

Ah, you're welcome! Like I said, I'm terrible at talking--hence the Tumblr, which lends itself more to the reblogging of nice things without the expectation of brain activity (that and it has the bulk of the community for my other main fandom)--but I do love to read.

Shipping used to be so fun before I realized this was how it was; I still love shipping but actually dealing with it in fandom, even for ships I like, gets me really tired. In fact this is especially true for ships I like, because those are the parts of fandom I'm most often exposed to.

ETA (I knew I had forgotten to say something): Also thank you for complimenting my penname there!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I admit I was just absolutely verklempt when Lexi sent me the link and I felt so bad that I didn't have a direct way to say thank you, so I'm so glad you saw it. *blushes* And that you enjoy yourself here. Thank you SO much for the free PR!

I still love shipping but actually dealing with it in fandom, even for ships I like, gets me really tired. In fact this is especially true for ships I like, because those are the parts of fandom I'm most often exposed to.

I was agreeing with your comments - and still do. I wasn't aware that it was part of some greater conversation or kerfuffle. (I guess?) I don't think that kerfuffle ever really ends anyway, it just flares up now and then. I'm not anti-shipper by any means. I ship all sorts of pairings on the show.

But after reading Spuffy fic and conversations for a while I began to wonder if there was as much Buffy hatred in other shipping factions and - sadly, yes, there is. And every shipping faction thinks they are absolutely different to every other. They aren't they really are not. We're all fans of the show, in the end.

And your name really is lovely, how did you come up with it? I love the imagery and snowdrops are one of my favorite flowers.

[tigerpetals.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I could be present to make the bad feelings go away! This place is a favorite of mine.

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest you disagreed. I knew you did, because you said so. I actually didn't know there was a fandom divide between shippers and not-shippers that people talked about; usually when I do see something that dismisses shipping, it's either dismissing a specific faction or equating shipping with the entirety of online fandom. I didn't think you were doing that.

And yes, that's pretty much the thing. All the factions I've been in or even just visited have the same ways of being terrible. There's one in another fandom of mine with the distinction of calling its shipping more feminist and progressive because they ship an f/f pairing between two main female characters, but I've been in it since the beginning and it's actually not any better than the others in practice. Woe is the multi-shipper! Woe is anyone who doesn't put a ship first! (Unless they put a male character first. Then it's okay sometimes.)

I derived the name from this one, which is in reference to the tigerlily. It's featured in a story I've forgotten everything about, except there was a girl receiving her grandfather's reassurance that being different didn't make her less beautiful and interesting. I've also loved snowdrops ever since they featured in a chapter of Saint Tail, a childhood manga favorite about a sort of Robin Hood schoolgirl. So I wanted to keep with the childhood flower thing but not use the same name as before.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

This place is a favorite of mine.

It is? Now I really don't know what to say!


Oh, I didn't mean to suggest you disagreed.

Actually I was speaking broadly - or somesuch - I didn't think you thought I disagreed. (Got it? There will be a quiz later....*lol*) When I quoted you I was just focused on your comments and not the context of whatever was going on around it, of which I was and am pretty ignorant to be honest, although this discussion (and eilowyn's post repeating her comments at the top, and the discussion following that) have been very interesting and...educational.

There's one in another fandom of mine with the distinction of calling its shipping more feminist and progressive because they ship an f/f pairing between two main female characters, but I've been in it since the beginning and it's actually not any better than the others in practice.

The fallacy that that lesbianism is naturally more "feminist" than heterosexuality makes sense in the context of the 1970's when lesbians were still fighting to be out and accepted in the mainstream feminist organizations, and had to assert legitimacy. But it's just a variation on biological superiority - that women are kinder, gentler, more nuturing; that they will make politics less cutthroat, etc etc.
We know better now - don't we?

Woe is the multi-shipper!

I was having a conversation with velvetwhip a while back trying to come up with a name for "what I am now" in terms of fandom shipping, and "multishipper" was probably the best we came up with. Thanks to fandom shipping, I'm no longer monogamous in my shipping practices! And I don't just mean in a negative way - fan writers turned me on to pairings I wouldn't have come up with on my own (Faith/Willow, Willow/Angel, etc) and that's delightful IMO. It makes the fandom experience richer for me.

But the whole who did Buffy love most game? OVER IT.

At this point I almost hesitate to call myself a Spuffy shipper because the label seems to be accompanied by a certain set of assumptions that I don't believe and can't sign up for, that I don't want to be associated with. And yet I do ship them in S7 for my own reasons, and want to be able to celebrate what I love about them then.

Woe is anyone who doesn't put a ship first! (Unless they put a male character first. Then it's okay sometimes.)

This doesn not surprise me. And I know (from looking at your fic list) that you are/have been part of a variety of fandoms; which only reinforces the fact that it's a wider cultural phenomenon.

which is in reference to the tigerlily. It's featured in a story I've forgotten everything about, except there was a girl receiving her grandfather's reassurance that being different didn't make her less beautiful and interesting.

That sounds somewhat familiar - and as it happens, tigerlilies are another of my favorites! They grow wild along the roads in parts of North carolina, and when we were first dating my sweetie would pick bunches of them and bring them home for me.

I'm not at all familiar with manga (am I the last person on earth?) but it sounds interesting - should I check out Saint Tail?

Edited because I broke the italics

[tigerpetals.livejournal.com]

The gif is adorable and happy-making enough. :]

Actually I was speaking broadly - or somesuch - I didn't think you thought I disagreed. (Got it? There will be a quiz later....*lol*)

Aha! My brain twisted down the wrong path then. I get it now.

But it's just a variation on biological superiority - that women are kinder, gentler, more nuturing; that they will make politics less cutthroat, etc etc.
We know better now - don't we?

Yeah. I have no idea why I was so conflicted about some of the things going on that fandom--I already knew that claiming something was done with feminist intent didn't make it unproblematic, to say the least, and I'd seen a similar thing when I was into reading Buffy/Faith, where often one of the female characters was bashed to prop up the other. But I spent a lot of my time in that section at first and I kept wondering why I wasn't wholly agreeing with how some opinions were held up as feminist and correct.

It makes the fandom experience richer for me.

This! Yes, I like multishipping because it allows me to explore different possibilities and dynamics. I don't think I've had an OTP in a long time, even when there are pairings I love more than others. Thinking about it in terms of who is best/who Buffy loves more can be so reductive--and prescriptive, for that matter, in that it tends to come with scolding Buffy for not making the 'right' choice.

want to be able to celebrate what I love about them then.

This is a fandom dilemma for me. I feel weird talking about or showing any celebration of ships that I love unless they're really tiny, because of all the connotations they have within fandom among people who ship them and people who don't. And I don't want to give more focus to something that already takes up a good deal of online space, and that some people who might look at me are really tired of. I get tired of it and want to look at something different sometimes too! But sometimes I want to squee and say why I like the thing!

which only reinforces the fact that it's a wider cultural phenomenon.
Yes, I haven't escaped yet. I've been in fandoms for anime, books movies, and tv shows; the things I see now remind me of what I was seeing 10+ years ago. Except there's more contact between the fans and the people behind the scenes of shows, I guess, and so probably more harassment from the fans about their ships. I found some of that in the last few months.

That's a lovely story about the tigerlilies!

I loved Saint Tail and it's incredibly cute! She recovers things that are stolen, but the police think she's a thief, and there's a boy who makes it his mission to catch her, a nun best friend who helps her on her cases, and a hedgehog sidekick! But it's out of print and the company that brought it to the US closed. I'm lucky enough to have all their releases; I can't find any scanlations that go past chapter 9. The anime can be found streamed online--illegally--but I never watched it, though I heard it was good. I think the snowdrop plot was episode 24 if the anime was faithful, because I remember it had to do with a secret perfume and Wikipedia says there is a perfume case in that episode.

[snogged.livejournal.com]

Congrats on the rec, sweetie! Proud of you!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

*SQUISHY HUGS*

Thank you sweetie!

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind the month-old comment, but I was going through old notes on tumblr and...the world is pretty small, isn't it? :P I'm actually the person snowdropsandtigers was replying to.

I think kwritten has summed up most of my thoughts on it in her first post in the thread here. I'm Buffy-first. Before ships or anything else. So yeah...her deletion when discussing her own narrative (it's her show, yo!) when it comes to ships just drives me up the wall.

I made that post when the first issue of the new comics came out and it frustrated me because it was the same crap as always yet people were applauding it. Again, Buffy still written crappily, but Spuffy undertones, so thoughts were positive. That seems to have changed after the #2 previews, though. It reminded me of the outrage in 2010 after the space!frak and how everyone got over it once they convinced themselves it was a subversion of Bangel. Even if it was, it's still punishment for a romantic choice* and that's bullshit whether it's Angel or Spike. Again, it reminds me of TGIQ where the writers were pretty blatantly mocking BOTH shipper groups, yet Spuffy fans were laughing at the Bangels while taking Spike taking credit for saving the world in S2 as proof.

Meh. Kwritten has said it all better.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

So you're downtoolong? Small world indeed! I was taken aback by snowdrops very kind compliments. And no, I don't mind late compliments at all!

Also I read some of your tumblr posts (I noticed xlivieloxx there as well) and found them really interesting - I had no idea that so much actual conversation was happening on tumblr (not just picspams); but the format seems weird to me. Perhaps I've been wrong that it doesn't suit conversations. (I can't see myself making an account but I'm tempted just to be able to follow and chime in from time to time.)

But you know I share your thoughts on the matter at any rate - and kwritten definitely put down in words what I've been thinking for some time, and probably with more clarity and passion than I could. (I only disagree with her slightly on the subject of slash shipping, which I think is a legitimate strategy for writing about dynamics and characters an author is genuinely interested in - preferable to "shipping Spuffy/Bangel" etc whilst hating one of the partners in the pairing.) But I have nothing to back up that opinion beyond a general intuition sense.

Again, Buffy still written crappily, but Spuffy undertones, so thoughts were positive.

Well I do get that other people are Spike fans first, or shipping is their primary lens. That's what they are in it for, as passionately as I'm in it for Buffy. What surprised (surprises) me is the number of folks who said "it's Joss I trust him [to make it make sense]? to confirm my ship [which he never has had the balls to do either way]?" After how many years?

Even I felt sympathy for Bangel and Angel fans after the spacefrak because I assumed they'd be infuriated by the treatment of their ship and beloved characters and that turned out by and large to not be the case, from what I've seen. It's perplexing.

Even if it was, it's still punishment for a romantic choice* and that's bullshit whether it's Angel or Spike.

Whether it was meant to be "subversive" or not, it's gross and mean-spirited towards the characters - and their fans - on any number of levels. But especially towards Buffy herself.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Originally I never intended to leave comments. I created an account so I could ignore all the role-playing blogs when I searched the tags for fan art. Nah, it's not really conducive to good conversations--the 'reblog' thing is too clunky for that--and it's more geared toward positive reinforcement than critical. For a while there, though, it was the only place for 'Buffy' discussions. Some posters have interesting thoughts, but for the most part it's a rehash of years ago. Mostly I just end up attempting to explain some things were not what people thought they were back then.

But I have nothing to back up that opinion beyond a general intuition sense.

I think it can be, depending on the writer or pairing. I've seen a lot of Buffy/Faith stuff that had a lot of the same vibes as B/S, B/A, B/G, B/X, etc. As I think I said before, I think the only pairing I've read where it wasn't rampant was B/T. Even then there used to always be some Spike bashing, but at least then Buffy used to end it herself as opposed to Tara 'saving' her from him. That could just be me; I'm not much into non-canon slash. I like interactions between characters, but I'm canon first. Like Spangel. I think Spike and Angel have a very, very interesting tension-filled dynamic, but I could never see them as a functional couple.

Well I do get that other people are Spike fans first, or shipping is their primary lens.

Yeah, I get that, but as I said on tumblr it bugs me when they talk smack about Angel fans or Xander fans or Bangel who do the same thing.

It's perplexing.

I saw a lot of rage from Angel fans back then. I think it could be because you seem to hang around Buffy fandom, not AtS fandom and aren't exposed as much to fans of Angel the character. Could be wrong there. Not that I'd blame you. A LOT of Angel fans hate Buffy. I try to avoid them myself except for a few. :P

Whether it was meant to be "subversive" or not, it's gross and mean-spirited towards the characters - and their fans - on any number of levels. But especially towards Buffy herself.

Totally. And really, I don't know how Spuffy fans think it's in the cards after the blatant taunting in 34-37 of S8. The only Spuffy in S10 will end in tragedy or Spike telling Buffy to shove off (which is what a lot of these fans want, lbr).