"Welcome to the Hellmouth" / "Bring on The Night"

[red_satin_doll]

"You're standing at the mouth of Hell. And it's about to open up." *

***
"I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared.
I'm standing on the mouth of Hell and it's going to swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." **

* Joss Whedon
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie

Comments

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I liked him in S4 mostly because Buffy seemed happy with him - non-traumatic sex and all that - and didn't get the fandom hate for him; and then S5 hit and that was all she wrote, folks.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

They want their daughter to move out, be successful, yet second guess and undermine them because they don't trust them to have authority in their own life.

YES, exactly. And it's hypocritical of him after walking out on her in S6, but it's something that happens in RL all the time; humans can love one another and have the best intentions and still hurt each other.

Absolutely right about the Scoob's being in character; and in hindsight I actually cut them all a lot of slack because - where were they supposed to learn these wonderful values that everyone wants them to have and be totally mature and supportive? They each have rather broken homes, unstable or unavailable parents, etc; they basically are having to make it up as they go along. Doesn't mean I enjoy watching it, but it's not OOC or all that unrealistic. In fact, it's almost too realistic.

I don't know if Spike walking out was OOC for him at that point; as he said to Wood earlier to the "How's that [the soul] going for you?" "In progress" Spike in S7 is very much a work in progress; and we've seen him back away from demons and physical fights, so in a way this is an extension of that - trying to back down from a (verbal) fight and Buffy calls him on the carpet. I just rewatched it btw, and the callback to Smashed in her "I'm nowhere near him" line struck me as significant.

After all, *they* were the ones who suffered for it in the long run.

True but intention and outcome are two different things.

Like I see Buffy killing Caleb as the slaying of her daddy issue.

Hadn't thought of that but it works for me! I do think it's funny that Angel is out of commission most of the scene, just as he was generally pretty useless in the early seasons, and that's the point - big hero to come and save the day and he doesn't. Again.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I've only watched one ep of True Blood and never read the books, but I can see how one would lead to the other. (that one ep didn't make me want to watch any more of it particularly.)

Joyce was a very real charachter, with failings and strength.

Watching it initially I wanted more of her, wanted her to know that Buffy was a Slayer sooner etc and be part of the story more. Which is valid, esp since Giles is so important to the story; but what is there is oftentimes very rich.

She was never less than supportive for anything I did, even when I learnt to weld and build truck bodies and hung out with the boys. :D

Good for her! I dare say that wasn't entirely usual for a woman of that time (it wouldn't have been in America, I think.)

[comlodge.livejournal.com]

The books are much better than the show. I loved the first 8 or 9. Devoured them. Brought me here so they must have been good. :D

I think I just accepted that as a reference to the fact that so few parents really know what their teenage children are doing. My son goes out with friends, goes to parties and I trust they are good things. But I don;t really know what they get up to. And you read the horror stories all the time. So I had no trouble with this.

I suppose for me she was the grounding in reality. Buffy could go through her front door and live normal for a bit, have a rest. I liked the way they handled the big reveal as well and Joyce's reaction. So correlates to real life.

Er no, not usual. I should have finished my aprenticeship but I didn't. :D

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I suppose for me she was the grounding in reality. Buffy could go through her front door and live normal for a bit, have a rest. I liked the way they handled the big reveal as well and Joyce's reaction. So correlates to real life.

*nods* I actually thought the metaphor of being "in the closet" was generally well-done (and not specific to sexual orientation) so I wanted more of Joyce in the story but did the reveal and how Joyce handle it seem real? Yes, very much so. And I think those moments are the most upsetting (for most people) watching the show because we want characters we love to be better than that, to be better than what they are.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Back in the day I liked '90's fashions much better than '70's or '80's fashions in general. More streamlined, less fussy - although having only one silhouette (and it's actually gotten worse since then - women's clothes are designed for a single body type); and the colors (sand, celery, sage, salmon) were boring. (The only thing I miss about '80's fashions are the jewel-tones.) OTOH I liked the renewal of the 1930's long gowns.

I wouldn't say that 1960's fashions are better - they look good in modern interpretations but when I look at magazines from the period, it's a different story entirely. To me it's too false, too constructed.

[kikimay]

I hate the fact that Joss still think he was "a good guy". And he was, ultimately, but he was also so messed up and parading around his big wounded ego and I wanted to someone to just point it out: Riley, you're a good guy but damn if you complain too much!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

For a moment there I wasn't sure if you were talking about Joss or Riley! Because they sure sound the same - the big wounded egos, etc. Joss acts like a baby when he doesn't get his way.

I'm not sure if I'd define Riley as "good or bad"; I think he's far more morally ambiguous than he wants to think he is. He wants to see himself as a white hat, but neither does he want to question the system or think about it to hard. As long as he can put things in neat little categories he feels safe. To me in that way he isn't heroic in the way that Buffy and Spike are.

And isn't that at the heart of fascism?

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Oh, they're very similar.

and that honestly pissed me off pretty quickly because I could tell exactly what the writers WANTED me to think, but I wasn't buying.

Oh, yeah. That's the rub. We *are* supposed to think he got the short end of the stick, to which, the writers can stick it.

[kikimay]

And isn't that at the heart of fascism?

It is! Nice catch and nice analysis of Riley. I guess that I see him as "good" because he strongly believes that he's good but he does questionable things and he basically has this strong internal system because he's "the soldier", he's always been the soldier and he will always be. But soldiers are not always heroes.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I don't know if Spike walking out was OOC for him at that point

That's true. We don't really know Souled Spike at that point.

big hero to come and save the day and he doesn't. Again.

Well, he does at the beginning, but it's very short-lived. Added to that I once read somewhere that Fillon auditioned for Angel. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's an interesting tidbit.

I really think a big dropped ball was Joss not killing Xander as he planned. Xander represented a lot of underlying problems and male insecurities and would have tied up so many themes a little better.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

That's true. We don't really know Souled Spike at that point.

As Buffy herself said "you don't even know you". The old Spike would have snarked and snapped and made derogatory remarks about all of them, then sauntered out with a dramatic sweep of his coat. This Spike tries to sneak out of the room before Buffy stops him. I can see him wanting to separate himself from the angry mood, which is pretty normal - and in a RL situation I'd call it healthy, but this isn't RL. Whether that's because he's feeling battered or whether he's still making the mistake that Willow is making re: magic, and "holding back" because he wants to snap at Buffy but thinks he oughtn't I don't know. In some ways, she's right - the old Spike, or certain qualities he possessed is exactly what she needs, and not just in terms of fighting skills.

"if I need someone to get weepy or whaled on, I'll call you". *lol* That is SO Angel.

I once read somewhere that Fillon auditioned for Angel.

I read that somewhere as well - he probably could have done a good job of it, but it would have been a very different performance. Speaking of trivia, you probably know that "supposedly" that was to be Riley not Angel in EoD/Chosen, but I'm a little more skeptical about that. It doesn't make as much sense to me thematically.

I really think a big dropped ball was Joss not killing Xander as he planned.

Then Emma Caulfield asked to be written out.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

It is! Nice catch and nice analysis of Riley.

I'm actually cribbing off norwie2010 quite a bit, but thanks!

he's always been the soldier and he will always be. But soldiers are not always heroes.

Might doesn't make right. But if you're carrying the gun, you need to believe that, I think.

I do think he sees himself as lightened and liberal to an extent - liberal but not progressive or transgressive. He admires strong women, he marries someone who is his peer, but he's making adjustments to the system, not radical changes.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

We *are* supposed to think he got the short end of the stick, to which, the writers can stick it.

Can I help you hold the stick? :)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

but I'm a little more skeptical about that. It doesn't make as much sense to me thematically.

*eyebrow raise* Yeah, color me skeptical as well...but it does kind of fit that helicopter stuff. Hell, it might be true. I daresay it actually makes sense given his re-introduction in 7-13.

Then Emma Caulfield asked to be written out.

Yeah, that was a Fox thing. Apparently they weren't big on letting actors do side projects or something.

[kikimay]

Again, I agree with your - and Norwie- analysis. I think it's frustrating for the audience because Buffy often doubts about herself and her judgement while Riley mostly doesn't.

[comlodge.livejournal.com]

we want characters we love to be better than that, to be better than what they are.

That is so true. We want out tv people to be larger than life and oh so much better than we are. We want to think our mums would be better than that. And of course Joyce is. But we are reminded she is human, they all are and are allowed to show it and grow from it.

I really dilike S5 Spike - for his clumsy courting attempts, his Bufffy shrine. I wanted a smooth operator, after all 100plus years of experience.

Except William died a shy, 28yr old virgin withe one failed attempt at courting. So of course Spike is bumbling and awkward in what is only his second attempt at winning the girl. And he is alone, a lot so plenty of room for an obsession to grow.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Nah, I'm not trying to keep her from having a sex life. That would be mean. I just want her sexual identity to come from a position of strength and positivity, not the "oh look how sexy my lack of sexuality is" that comes with cherry imagery. Grrr. I may be...over-reacting.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

And of course Joyce is. But we are reminded she is human, they all are and are allowed to show it and grow from it.

Exactly THIS.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Re: Emma, the rumor I've heard/read was that she specifically asked to be written out just in case there was a S8 because she didn't want to come back? But I thought by that point it was well-known that they were cancelled - but I really have no idea of the timeline. I try not to pay too much attention to that stuff 'cause it's mostly hearsay anyway.

Did she have another project going at the time?

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Well, there are multiple stories about whether they even were cancelled or just 'ended'. According to Joss, everyone knew it would be the last of Buffy before it started. I think the way things were written kind of back that up as far as Buffy goes.

Either way, when they were breaking Chosen, I don't think all the possibilities for spinoffs were dead. Chosen script was turned in April 3rd. So figure a week or two more to break it, go through revisions, etc. She probably asked in March when some other ideas were being kicked around and the slayer school thing was still a possibility.

I forget where she mentioned Fox, but she said she wasn't happy with them. From what I remember, she made some comments on Howard Stern about not being happy with some BtS stuff. Naturally people thought she was referring to SMG, but when asked later she clarified it had something to do with Fox.

[lanoyee.livejournal.com]

Uhhh hi there, I'm Kikoujutsuka on AO3, who has recently thoughtsplurged at you in response to a comment you made on my story. Uh. 8D;; (FTR I got here via Buffyworld.com.)

Anyway YESSS THIS PARALLEL also BUFFY MY BABY. This beautifully encapsulates her journey -- in WTTH, she had no idea what Angel was talking about, or well, a very vague idea that it wasn't gonna be good, and that it was part of those things she really didn't want to engage with at the point but also knew, deep inside, she'd better deal with. In Bring on the Night, though? She knows. She's lived on the hellmouth for six/seven years and she knows exactly what that means. She also knows she's only now going to face it head-on, instead of just the ripples it makes in her environment. She's ready, though. She's been through her worst, just came out of a period on her life where she probably couldn't have faced it, but now she's come through and she hates it, but she's ready.

Are you ready to be strong?

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Oh hey hon! I didn't know you had an LJ, welcome to my little parlour. I keep forgetting that Buffyworld also lists the su_herald links. Nifty. Anyhow, you gave me an excuse to revisit "Pen and Paper" (not that an excuse is really needed.)

Anyway YESSS THIS PARALLEL also BUFFY MY BABY

I got your back! ;) I was rewatching School Hard a few months back after I'd finished the series and that moment with Joyce in the axe just pops. I love the show for that so much, there's always new things to find.

and that it was part of those things she really didn't want to engage with at the point but also knew, deep inside, she'd better deal with. In Bring on the Night, though? She knows. She's lived on the hellmouth for six/seven years and she knows exactly what that means.

Yes, very well-said.

She also knows she's only now going to face it head-on, instead of just the ripples it makes in her environment.

Do you mean in terms of facing herself specifically in the form of the First, rather than a monster outside herself? I mostly agree, except that I don't know if she quite knows that yet entirely. She's not ready YET, but she has to convince everybody else that she is, and maybe she believes it herself. This marks the moment in S7 when she digs her heels in and becomes more inflexible. But she's just heard Giles say that Buffy was their only "plan", they had no other. She has to do it because there is no one else. That's been the point of the entire series. So she does what she always does - her duty. Just like back in Prophecy Girl, walking to certain death. But now she has less emotional resources to draw upon physically and mentally.

There's a contrast between this speech "We just became an army"; she's speaking for everyone, giving a command, trying to rouse and motivate the troops so to speak; and Chosen's "Are you ready to be strong?" laying out her case to everyone and giving them to option to participate or not; she's already told Spike "we're going to win".

I'll probably do another post on this because - gah. I'm really becoming very fond of S7, and I love all the parallels across the seasons. I love the contrast with this s

May I friend you, btw?

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I may be...over-reacting.

But then that's your job, isn't it - to protect her? But not protect her too much...and nobody can really tell you how to do it. No user's manual.

I decided in my teens I didn't want to be a parent. Being the oldest of four latchkey kids convinced me of that, and I don't regret it. I would have been utterly clueless, so my hat's off to you for having the courage to raise children, esp a daughter in this day and age. Sex is everywhere, we're saturated in it in ways that would have been unimaginable to me growing up even in the '70's and '80's.

[lanoyee.livejournal.com]

Oh! ♥ Well, you could friend me, only it would be little use because my LJ's been dead for a while. Same for DW, which I mostly use for RP purposes. I'm mostly on tumblr and plurk these days (Kikoujutsuka on both), where I occasionally do post various BtVS-related stuff. Suppose I could re-post some of it to my LJ. :|a

Do you mean in terms of facing herself specifically in the form of the First, rather than a monster outside herself?

Haha, mostly more literally, in terms of the fact that we've been on the Hellmouth for seven seasons, but never really inside of it. Though I guess that really symbolifies what you're saying -- getting to the root of the problem, if you will.

She's not ready YET, but she has to convince everybody else that she is, and maybe she believes it herself. This marks the moment in S7 when she digs her heels in and becomes more inflexible.

Hmm, yeah, now that you mention it, I agree. Let's say -- she's preparing to be ready. Emotionally she's not there yet because, yes, S7 sees her extremely trapped in that expection <-> obligation dynamic, and that's a huge mental block. Especially considering S7 ups the ante: before, she has been leading, but mostly her tiny, familiar group of friends. Now there's a bunch of young, vulnerable girls depending on her. The dynamic has changed dramatically and puts her in a position she feels she should know how to handle but really has no idea.

I'd love to see you post more on this! I'm quite fond of S7 myself. I mean, yeah, plot holes, but it has some juicy pieces of development. I wrote a bit on the S7 episode "Help" if you're interested. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!