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"You're standing at the mouth of Hell. And it's about to open up." *
***
"I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared.
I'm standing on the mouth of Hell and it's going to swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." **
* Joss Whedon
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie
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Date: 2013-04-22 08:48 am (UTC)Do you mean in terms of facing herself specifically in the form of the First, rather than a monster outside herself?
Haha, mostly more literally, in terms of the fact that we've been on the Hellmouth for seven seasons, but never really inside of it. Though I guess that really symbolifies what you're saying -- getting to the root of the problem, if you will.
She's not ready YET, but she has to convince everybody else that she is, and maybe she believes it herself. This marks the moment in S7 when she digs her heels in and becomes more inflexible.
Hmm, yeah, now that you mention it, I agree. Let's say -- she's preparing to be ready. Emotionally she's not there yet because, yes, S7 sees her extremely trapped in that expection <-> obligation dynamic, and that's a huge mental block. Especially considering S7 ups the ante: before, she has been leading, but mostly her tiny, familiar group of friends. Now there's a bunch of young, vulnerable girls depending on her. The dynamic has changed dramatically and puts her in a position she feels she should know how to handle but really has no idea.
I'd love to see you post more on this! I'm quite fond of S7 myself. I mean, yeah, plot holes, but it has some juicy pieces of development. I wrote a bit on the S7 episode "Help" if you're interested. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!
This is gonna get lengthy, hope you don't mind!
Date: 2013-04-24 02:39 pm (UTC)mostly more literally....Though I guess that really symbolifies what you're saying -- getting to the root of the problem, if you will.
The literal and metaphorical are so tightly interwoven on this show that I can't extricate them, but my brain is very comfortable shifting back and forth between the the two frameworks or lenses. She actually did go "down" to the Master but I don't remember if the text states that she was literally going down into the Hellmouth, but she did metaphorically, in order to be reborn as a "Slayer" and claim the title on a deeper level than she had before.
Let's say -- she's preparing to be ready. Emotionally she's not there yet because, yes, S7 sees her extremely trapped in that expection <-> obligation dynamic, and that's a huge mental block. Especially considering S7 ups the ante....she feels she should know how to handle but really has no idea
YES! "expectation <-> obligation dynamic" is exactly right. And furthermore, Giles and the SG's overheard conversation makes clear that once again there is no one else to handle it.
Your analysis of Help was terrific - concise, focused and right-on (I'm terrifyingly verbose as you've seen and admire those qualities in other writers). I've seen lots of fans mention Cassie as a pro-Potential or foreshadowing the Potentials, but I'd forgotten about the even more personal connection between her and Buffy and two girls who know they WILL die young.
What you said actually reminded me of how Buffy has related to other people, esp other "young people" who are also Chosen Ones and have to bear unwanted responsibilities - specifically Ampata in Inca Mummy Girl. And she does the same with RJ in Him, briefly, connect to him as someone who is a leader, with specific responsibilities - but she's falling under the spell when that's happening. So it's not that RJ doesn't have real responsibilities but he's cheated to get them; they don't come from within like The Slayer or Cassie as a Seer. And the source is the jacket that comes from his father and tied to a sport (football) that's coded specifically as "masculine".
That RJ has a choice in the matter, whereas Ampata, Buffy and Cassie never did, would actually be to the good IF he didn't then chose to abuse/misuse that power. The original script had Xander stating - twice - that the "poor kid" had no idea the jacket had magic powers, as so RJ was as much a victim as the girls, but those were removed and the episode itself gives every indication that he knows exactly what he's doing. I don't think I'd like Him as much as I do if they'd stayed with the "RJ as victim" reading.
And I have TOTAL LOVE for your observations about Buffy's sisterly love trumping the spell in the end. http://kikoujutsuka.tumblr.com/post/22595518115/image-four-gifs-from-the-buffy-the-vampire
NOT IN THE LEAST oh juicy replies *A*
Date: 2013-04-24 04:28 pm (UTC), thereby confusing the entirety of my flist? I mean, cookies are certainly a more than sufficient incentive.The literal and metaphorical are so tightly interwoven on this show that I can't extricate them, but my brain is very comfortable shifting back and forth between the the two frameworks or lenses. She actually did go "down" to the Master but I don't remember if the text states that she was literally going down into the Hellmouth, but she did metaphorically, in order to be reborn as a "Slayer" and claim the title on a deeper level than she had before.
Ahhh, yeah! That was her first metamorphosis -- going down into the underworld, her shadow side. The part of her that walks with monsters.
Alas, myself, I think I am more literally-minded. Thus perhaps a little slow on the uptake as metaphors are concerned.
And furthermore, Giles and the SG's overheard conversation makes clear that once again there is no one else to handle it.
GOD YES honestly, I feel like they all just continuously enable each other. Scoobies look to Buffy to lead them, Buffy leads, Scoobies get comfy being told what to do, Buffy plays it lone wolf style etc. and in the end they're all too set in their roles to just be able to change them in a heartbeat. Buffy definitely plays her part in the whole mess, but it's kinda unfair to blame her alone imo. I'm not sure there's anyone specifically to blame. It's just how things happened.
Your analysis of Help was terrific - concise, focused and right-on (I'm terrifyingly verbose as you've seen and admire those qualities in other writers).
Eeee, thank you! And in turn, I kind of envy the ability to be verbose in other writers. I have a hard time churning out a lot of words. In fanfiction, I'm not always lyrical enough to make up for my concision. xP
What you said actually reminded me of how Buffy has related to other people, esp other "young people" who are also Chosen Ones and have to bear unwanted responsibilities - specifically Ampata in Inca Mummy Girl.
Yes, Ampata! I rewatched that episode some time ago, and
Unfortunate Implications asideBuffy was a real champ there.And she does the same with RJ in Him, briefly, connect to him as someone who is a leader, with specific responsibilities - but she's falling under the spell when that's happening. So it's not that RJ doesn't have real responsibilities but he's cheated to get them; they don't come from within like The Slayer or Cassie as a Seer. And the source is the jacket that comes from his father and tied to a sport (football) that's coded specifically as "masculine".
That RJ has a choice in the matter, whereas Ampata, Buffy and Cassie never did, would actually be to the good IF he didn't then chose to abuse/misuse that power. The original script had Xander stating - twice - that the "poor kid" had no idea the jacket had magic powers, as so RJ was as much a victim as the girls, but those were removed and the episode itself gives every indication that he knows exactly what he's doing. I don't think I'd like Him as much as I do if they'd stayed with the "RJ as victim" reading.
Oh, that's really interesting! I don't actually watch Him a lot, it's not one of my favorites -- honestly, I was over the love spell thing by Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. It's too iffy for me to really find it funny, for some reason (and I can watch and even enjoy a LOT of awfulness *coughalotofS6cough*).
And I have TOTAL LOVE for your observations about Buffy's sisterly love trumping the spell in the end.
IT IS JUST SO HEARTWARMING GO SUMMERS SISTERS GO *A*
Re: NOT IN THE LEAST oh juicy replies *A*
Date: 2013-04-24 07:12 pm (UTC)And ahhh, the waste that was done to the Buffy&Tara friendship is just saddening
I know and I keep meaning to do a post on that subject (I've filled several notebooks with thoughts about the Buffyverse since last August at least; actually shaping and posting them and not getting sidetracked is the challenge.) I loved how Tara "sees" that Faith isn't Buffy w/out knowing her. and the two have a connection along several key points in Buffy's journey S4-6: Who Are You, Restless, the Body, Intervention (she's in the vision isn't she?), DT. And Buffy "returns the favor" in Family; protecting Tara and explicitly naming her as part of her family is the real "birthday gift" she gives Tara. And isn't OAFA, when Tara arrives for the birthday and Buffy says "you made it!" the one moment of undiluted genuine happiness we see from Buffy in S6?
I know that fans do state that Tara is the "mother figure" in S6, but IMO they generally are thinking of Dawn. But if you're looking at the show on the metaphorical level as lots of people do with Dawn representing Buffy's "humanity" (FYI - Joyce was there first. Just sayin') as well as her literal sister, then that's an additional thread of implied connection between them. Which in fact becomes pretty explicit in that last scene in DT which just breaks my heart (the sofa where Buffy snuggled against Joyce in Innocence, and where Joyce died - Joyce's photo is always on the sidetable next to it.)
And there's that sense, as with Buffy in S7, that Tara may not be entirely ready or prepared for her new responsibilities or burdens but she takes them on to the best of her ability; She never completely abandons Dawn & Buffy, unlike Hank, Giles, Angel, & Riley. And she dies in the Summers' home, albeit more violently than Joyce did. (You know I'm working out my meta on you right now, right?) I also think as with Buffy, other characters (particularly Willow - and FYI I'm not a Willow-basher at all) put expectations on Tara that she'd can't possibly fulfill - yet - But then this is true of nearly all the characters anyway. It's basic to their dynamic. (Ok, that was helluva long.)
The part of her that walks with monsters.
Have you seen
a little slow on the uptake as metaphors are concerned.
So says the person who reminded me of the connection between Buffy and Cassie. ;)
I feel like they all just continuously enable each other....I'm not sure there's anyone specifically to blame. It's just how things happened.
So much YES to that entire paragraph. I recently read the commentary track for New Moon Rising at
Re: Him it's my go-to ep when I need a laugh even over SB. ("His physical presence has a penis!" makes me grin just thinking about it.) But I understand why it doesn't work for some people. I know a lot of people are squicked out by the consent issues (Buffy and RJ esp) and embarrassed for Dawn at the cheerleading tryouts. But the good stuff for me outweighs the bad - Whereas BB&B is just too squicky. Buffy thanking Xander for not taking advantage of her? Ick.
GO SUMMERS SISTERS GO
PREACH
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 08:29 pm (UTC)I loved how Tara "sees" that Faith isn't Buffy w/out knowing her. and the two have a connection along several key points in Buffy's journey S4-6: Who Are You, Restless, the Body, Intervention (she's in the vision isn't she?), DT.
Alas, I don't think she is in the vision. :< But YES the other ones. So many bits of connection. It's nice in its subtlety.
And isn't OAFA, when Tara arrives for the birthday and Buffy says "you made it!" the one moment of undiluted genuine happiness we see from Buffy in S6?
Yes! I love how genuinely happy Buffy is to see her. ;; Also we get Tara sassing out Spike on Buffy's behalf. G L O R I O U S.
(FYI - Joyce was there first. Just sayin')
TBH I thinkt here's just always a mutlitude of metaphors. I mean, for instance, you can compare any character in BtVS with another character in points of personality or character history and get some meaningful parallels out of it. But yes, Joyce is underappreciated as Buffy's connection to humanity.
And there's that sense, as with Buffy in S7, that Tara may not be entirely ready or prepared for her new responsibilities or burdens but she takes them on to the best of her ability
Ohh, keen observation! I never thought about that tbh.
And she dies in the Summers' home, albeit more violently than Joyce did.
CRIES FOREVER. :(
particularly Willow - and FYI I'm not a Willow-basher at all
IDK I think Willow's actions particularly toward Tara in All The Way through Tabula Rasa were reprehensible and among the creepiest shit that happened on the show. It makes me kind of ambivalent on Willow. :/
Have you seen lostboy_lj's post The Monomythology of Buffy? It's a short meta w/pictorial chart of Buffy's arc via Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces.
I have! And NGL I just love that Buffy's just this lady hero whose journey fits that of classical heroes to a T.
So says the person who reminded me of the connection between Buffy and Cassie. ;)
sdfjlsdfjsld lmfao well. Sometimes I may stumble upon something.
(I get pissed off about Riley, so mea culpa.)
I think we all have our moments. I do too. It's just a human tendency kinda thing.
Him definitely does have its share of laughs! The whole scene in Robin's office with the rocket launcher is comedy gold. But yeah, mostly embarassment squick & just squick.
But the good stuff for me outweighs the bad - Whereas BB&B is just too squicky. Buffy thanking Xander for not taking advantage of her? Ick.
Haha, curiously enough... that's somehow not as bad for me? I mean yeah, it's gross that it has to be mentioned, but I guess... IT SUCKS but there are a lot of people out there who I think could benefit from having the squick factor of the situation pointed out. >> Sigh. So spelling it out may have been. IDEK, not good here, but you get what I mean?
no subject
Date: 2013-04-30 07:38 pm (UTC)I just rewatched Intervention and you're right. IDK why my memory has this very clear image of Tara being next to the bonfire on the opposite side of Buffy in it - I can see it down to the coat she's wearing - but my brain must have smushed together Tara in Restless and Willow in TWOTW.
I love how genuinely happy Buffy is to see her. ;; Also we get Tara sassing out Spike on Buffy's behalf. G L O R I O U S.
YESSS! SING IT! This gets missed so often in fandom; and Tara's supportiveness of Buffy in DT and saying that Spike "He's done some good and he does love you" gets misinterpreted into the notion that Tara is basically a Spuffy-shipper. And the whole "Tara and Spike have a special bond" trope - is that just fanon (and if so, whatever floats the boat) or do people read that in canon?
BTW - I know I said I don't "ship" Buffy and Tara - but then I was looking at caps of them yesterday in OAFA and Hell's Bells and I suddenly thought that, y'know, I could 'ship them, in a strictly non-canon kind of way. ;) But yes to the subtleties of that friendship, it's so underplayed and so underlooked.
for instance, you can compare any character in BtVS with another character in points of personality or character history and get some meaningful parallels out of it.
Absolutely! And I love those points of comparison and similarity. It's part of the richness of the show, as opposed to most entertainments, where what you see is all there is to see, and there's very little "there, there".
Joyce is underappreciated as Buffy's connection to humanity.
Again that word - underappreciated.
CRIES FOREVER. :(
*passes tissues*
I think Willow's actions particularly toward Tara in All The Way through Tabula Rasa were reprehensible and among the creepiest shit that happened on the show.
Every time I read someone write "All the Way" or ATW (AtW) I confuse it with As You Were. But yes, indeed, and again I'm willing to be compassionate - I can understand why, and it's been building ever since Willow told Cordy that the delete button the keyboard meant "Deliver". I don't think she's the evilst evil that ever eviled - OTOH I said to someone once that I thought the show was depicting W/T as closer to the stereotypical or traditional model of domestic abuse (in which one person is the primary or only abuser, although it's rarely that simple) in contrast to a more IMO "mutually abusive" depiction of Buffy and Spike. And it's complicated - I see my mom and her husbands in W/T, and my (lesbian) partner and myself more in B/S - NOT in terms of any physical hitting or fights but just in terms of arguments and verbal spats. But it's not always that simple, either. I mentioned that to someone one time and I think I offended them (they feel about Willow the way I do about Buffy); and I didn't mean to do so; but just using the word "abuse" (like rape) is triggery.
NGL sdfjlsdfjsld
'splainy please? (I should write a dictionary of online/LJ acronyms sometime. just to jog my own memory.)
The whole scene in Robin's office with the rocket launcher is comedy gold.
I've seen that scenario a thousand times in the movies and tv shows but this was the only time it ever made me laugh out loud.
But yeah, mostly embarassment squick & just squick.
Fair enough! I sometimes question if I'm not letting that ep get away with too much, or what my laughter says about me that I might not like knowing. (No laughing at the cheerleading tryouts, though.)
IT SUCKS but there are a lot of people out there who I think could benefit from having the squick factor of the situation pointed out. >> Sigh. So spelling it out may have been. IDEK, not good here, but you get what I mean?
If you mean me, I apologize; I only meant to describe my reaction, not proscribe yours. Sometimes I shouldn't use words.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-30 08:06 pm (UTC)Ohgod, I see I use way too many speech quirks/patterns from my own online social circle with you. /laughs
So, anything like "sdljfdslfjaödf" is called a keysmash, and it is something me and my friends often use to denote excitement, bafflement or similar emotions. It is created by literally hitting random keys.
NGL means "not gonna lie".
YESSS! SING IT! This gets missed so often in fandom; and Tara's supportiveness of Buffy in DT and saying that Spike "He's done some good and he does love you" gets misinterpreted into the notion that Tara is basically a Spuffy-shipper.
Really? That is... slightly odd. I mean, Tara's way not invested enough to ship it. She's basically being a great friend pointing out the positive in the situation to reassure Buffy that it's not that wrong of her to feel as she does.
And the whole "Tara and Spike have a special bond" trope - is that just fanon (and if so, whatever floats the boat) or do people read that in canon?
That's a trope? Wow. Things I didn't know. Though I did once read a very... interesting Buffy/Tara/Spike three-way fic. (Yes, really.)
BTW - I know I said I don't "ship" Buffy and Tara - but then I was looking at caps of them yesterday in OAFA and Hell's Bells and I suddenly thought that, y'know, I could 'ship them, in a strictly non-canon kind of way. ;)
And I think I could get down with that. ;) You know I said I basically ship Buffy with everyone. So I'm actually okay with completely out-of-the-blue Buffy pairings, as long as they interest me and don't gross me out.
Buffy/Wesley is surprisingly a favorite.But yes, indeed, and again I'm willing to be compassionate - I can understand why, and it's been building ever since Willow told Cordy that the delete button the keyboard meant "Deliver".
It's definitely been building up, and it's quite fascinating! I still kind of like/want to like Willow, as well -- just, some of her actions definitely make me go "uhhh". The way she treated Tara is among those.
in contrast to a more IMO "mutually abusive" depiction of Buffy and Spike.
Agreed. The abuse going on there is definitely mutual, and I think that's an important point because a lot of people are quick to wholly blame one or the other.
And it's complicated - I see my mom and her husbands in W/T, and my (lesbian) partner and myself more in B/S - NOT in terms of any physical hitting or fights but just in terms of arguments and verbal spats.
Ugh, I'm sorry to hear that. :(
But it's not always that simple, either. I mentioned that to someone one time and I think I offended them (they feel about Willow the way I do about Buffy); and I didn't mean to do so; but just using the word "abuse" (like rape) is triggery.
That's true -- one's gotta be careful about one's language concerning these issues. We all make mistakes, though, and unintenionally offend other people; I've done it often enough. :/
I sometimes question if I'm not letting that ep get away with too much, or what my laughter says about me that I might not like knowing
Ohh, I know that feeling! I know it well, sob.
If you mean me, I apologize; I only meant to describe my reaction, not proscribe yours. Sometimes I shouldn't use words.
Oh, no, I didn't mean that at all! I was just... doing the same thing, I guess. Describing my own reaction. You didn't offend me at all, and I'm sorry if it came off that way!
no subject
Date: 2013-05-01 07:17 pm (UTC)Oh, ok!
Really? That is... slightly odd. .
I have seen that in a lot of fics and conversations: the perception that Tara is ok with Buffy being with Spike, by virtue of the comments you mention, and I think also in comparison to the other Scoobies. Or at least to Xander, I don't recall Willow being judgemental of Spike in the same way that Xander is, but Xander has some "masculinity issues" that could sink the Titanic. & this is related to the Spike & Tara have a special bond trope shows up a lot: Tara defends Spike in front of the other Scoobs, Spike begrudgingly admits that she's a "bit of all right" or something. Joyce is portrayed similarly; because she's respectful & sometimes friendly to Spike & treats him like a person, is interpreted to mean she'd be cool with him being Buffy's boyfriend. I don't think that the text supports that. if she were alive in S7 she MIGHT be ok with Buffy and Spike being together; I'm certain she would not be cool with their relationship in S6. Then again if Joyce had been alive, the last two seasons would probably have been very different.
I think Tara & Joyce are used in some circles to claim the superiority of "their vampire" over the other; I'm not sure how much if any of that is genuine interest in Joyce and Tara themselves. Although there are the Tara/Spike shippers so I'll assume genuine interest there. I don't think I've ever actually read a story that shipped B/S/T but I'd be curious to read your's.
So I'm actually okay with completely out-of-the-blue Buffy pairings, as long as they interest me and don't gross me out. Buffy/Wesley is surprisingly a favorite.
I read a Buffy/Charlie Dunn story once that I really liked. I noticed you have Buffy/Wesley crossed out in your comment, 'splainy? I've read a couple of B/W stories and they were ok, except for one that goes AU after the end of S6 that I found a bit uncomfortable and degrading to Buffy. I got the feeling the author didn't like Buffy, and her behavior made no sense to me. So I haven't read any of that pairing since.
just, some of her actions definitely make me go "uhhh". The way she treated Tara is among those.
Oh yeah, I won't try to excuse or condone her actions either, any more than Buffy's or Spike's or Angel's or...anybody's basically. YMMV. Speaking of Willow I was watching bits of Earshot and surprised how much foreshadowing of S6 there is in it; I was comparing it overall to Normal Again but there's a scene where Willow interrogates Jonathan as a suspect & goes on about fantasies of control & being noticed; then later she says "That slippery little weasel I had him in my grasp!" OMG: cue Dark Willow. It's brilliant; all those moments in the early seasons that seemed cute or inconsequential end up having so much weight.
The abuse going on there is definitely mutual, and I think that's an important point because a lot of people are quick to wholly blame one or the other.
IKR? BTW I hope I wasn't getting too triggery for you mentioning my partner & myself; it's not a horrid relationship by any means; there's just a dynamic there & in my mom's relationships that help me understand what happens on BtVS; things make sense to me for specific reasons; I don't have a lot of academic theory to hide behind because it's mostly very real world stuff. I probably need to be more careful though.
We all make mistakes, though, and unintenionally offend other people; I've done it often enough.
Yep. Then I'll feel bad afterward; & hopefully I can apologize & it'll all be cool; most times it is. But there have been other times-have you ever been left feeling at the end of a conversation, WTF just happened? Not sure if you were crazy and irrational or the other person was? I hate that feeling.
Describing my own reaction. You didn't offend me at all, and I'm sorry if it came off that way!
No worries! I tend to go back and forth I think between oversensitive and not sensitive enough; and sometimes it's hard for me to read between the lines, so I'll default to "my bad". But that is such old, old training in me that it's a habit, unfortunately.
no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 05:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-24 07:34 pm (UTC)