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red_satin_dollWhen I realized that:
1) Buffy, Faith and/or Buffy/Faith (I can go either way) was starting to take up major real estate in my brain, my fanfic and in my
fandom conversations;
2) I can't decide from one day to the next which Summers sister I 'ship with Faith (I can go either way)
3) Buffy+Dawn+Faith+Tara = One True Family could totally be a thing in fandom;
...then it was way past time to get a new icon.
A.) Somewhere on the internet I saw an icon of Faith in Buffy's body in Who Are You, stroking Buffy's leg (now her own) in the bathtub with the text "Tell me again why Fuffy isn't canon?" (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
eleusis_walks's meta on Faith and Buffy describes the "masturbatory" nature of that scene. Tell us again why Fuffy isn't canon, Mr Whedon?) ETA: Mystery solved : it's beer_good_foamy's. Of course.
I haven't found that icon again but I came across a trove of Buffy/Faith icons on the "Fuffy fanclub" at Fanpop.com. All of them were posted by a member named AcidBanter by the source is only given as "LiveJournal"; so I suspect that AB isn't the original artist.
My apologies therefore and if anyone here does know, please let me know so I can give proper credit.
I wanted to go with #2, "WIll fuck with your sexual orientation" or one of the funny ones with text to start, but my template shrinks the icons too much and I have this bizarre kink about legibility. It's a thing.(#3 's "subtext" is just barely legible in this template.) I may end up rotating all of these anyway, thanks toelisi's instructions on how to do that by using the exact same keywords for the new icon as the one it replaces.
BTW, I haven't rewatched S3 in over a year btw so I'd forgotten how pretty Eliza was that season - and can anyone tell me what the what is going on in #8 below?
6.)
7.) 
8.) 
9.) 
10.) 
B.) Now this is the sad part: Because I'm limited to 15 icons, someone else had to get booted off the island. And y'all know I love my babies something fierce. *sniffle* This is where I needed to be strong and decisive. Most of my icons were DO NOT TOUCH just TRY to pry them out of my hot little hands and behold the meaning the word "fierce". That left four candidates:
I've used this one to represent: Lesbianism, friendship and/or solidarity, proof on Willow-centric journals that I don't hate Willow; and that moment is one of my favorite moments in the entire series. CHILLS UP MY SPINE every time I watch it.
BTW - the W/T "spiritual handfasting" will be echoed by B/S in Chosen, and perverted by Glory in Tough Love. Speaking of which, check outclockwork_hart1 tribute fic to Tara's bravery and sacrifice in TL, "Shadows and Light". (Read it now and thank me later.)
Extremely useful for obvious reasons, and cute besides. Everyone needs a "huh"? or WTF? icon.
Do I really need another image from "Showtime"? Probably not. But it's useful for "fierce and determined" (as opposed to "extremely pissed off"). Buffy's the hand: when she sets out to get something done, shit gets done.
Also useful for "I have a lot of love for S7 despite the flaws"; "I actually do sorta-kinda think her wounds are a little sexy even if I'm too chicken-shit to admit it"; And of course: "Buffy is my Hero damn it! And she's the protagonist of the Buffyverse! Ergo it is my sworn duty to remind fandom of this fact every once in a while." (Believe me now and thank me later.)
Which leaves me with:
I know, sweetie, I know - it hurts me too. *sobs quietly* But it's the icon I probably use the least, and comlodge 's original artwork will always have pride of place on my Welcome post. (Don't mind me, I'll be all righ...*curls up in fetal position and sobs loudly*)
1) Buffy, Faith and/or Buffy/Faith (I can go either way) was starting to take up major real estate in my brain, my fanfic and in my
fandom conversations;
2) I can't decide from one day to the next which Summers sister I 'ship with Faith (I can go either way)
3) Buffy+Dawn+Faith+Tara = One True Family could totally be a thing in fandom;
...then it was way past time to get a new icon.
A.) Somewhere on the internet I saw an icon of Faith in Buffy's body in Who Are You, stroking Buffy's leg (now her own) in the bathtub with the text "Tell me again why Fuffy isn't canon?" (
eleusis_walks's meta on Faith and Buffy describes the "masturbatory" nature of that scene. Tell us again why Fuffy isn't canon, Mr Whedon?) ETA: Mystery solved : it's beer_good_foamy's. Of course.My apologies therefore and if anyone here does know, please let me know so I can give proper credit.
I wanted to go with #2, "WIll fuck with your sexual orientation" or one of the funny ones with text to start, but my template shrinks the icons too much and I have this bizarre kink about legibility. It's a thing.(#3 's "subtext" is just barely legible in this template.) I may end up rotating all of these anyway, thanks to
elisi's instructions on how to do that by using the exact same keywords for the new icon as the one it replaces.1.) 
2.) 
3.) 
4.) 
5.) 
2.) 3.) 4.) 5.) BTW, I haven't rewatched S3 in over a year btw so I'd forgotten how pretty Eliza was that season - and can anyone tell me what the what is going on in #8 below?
6.)
7.) 8.) 9.) 10.) B.) Now this is the sad part: Because I'm limited to 15 icons, someone else had to get booted off the island. And y'all know I love my babies something fierce. *sniffle* This is where I needed to be strong and decisive. Most of my icons were DO NOT TOUCH just TRY to pry them out of my hot little hands and behold the meaning the word "fierce". That left four candidates:
I've used this one to represent: Lesbianism, friendship and/or solidarity, proof on Willow-centric journals that I don't hate Willow; and that moment is one of my favorite moments in the entire series. CHILLS UP MY SPINE every time I watch it.BTW - the W/T "spiritual handfasting" will be echoed by B/S in Chosen, and perverted by Glory in Tough Love. Speaking of which, check out
clockwork_hart1 tribute fic to Tara's bravery and sacrifice in TL, "Shadows and Light". (Read it now and thank me later.) Extremely useful for obvious reasons, and cute besides. Everyone needs a "huh"? or WTF? icon. Do I really need another image from "Showtime"? Probably not. But it's useful for "fierce and determined" (as opposed to "extremely pissed off"). Buffy's the hand: when she sets out to get something done, shit gets done.Also useful for "I have a lot of love for S7 despite the flaws"; "I actually do sorta-kinda think her wounds are a little sexy even if I'm too chicken-shit to admit it"; And of course: "Buffy is my Hero damn it! And she's the protagonist of the Buffyverse! Ergo it is my sworn duty to remind fandom of this fact every once in a while." (Believe me now and thank me later.)
Which leaves me with:
I know, sweetie, I know - it hurts me too. *sobs quietly* But it's the icon I probably use the least, and comlodge 's original artwork will always have pride of place on my Welcome post. (Don't mind me, I'll be all righ...*curls up in fetal position and sobs loudly*)
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no subject
Date: 2013-11-21 10:16 pm (UTC)Sorry about your having to practice tough love on your icons.
Gabrielle
no subject
Date: 2013-11-21 10:28 pm (UTC)Oh yeah. I've read that someone pointed out the subtext to Joss and he decided to tone it down, or that Sarah and Eliza really played up the attraction esp re: Bad Girls. (The heart drawn on the window? No subtext here folks.)
It interesting to speculate how much is intentional or not but in the end I don't really care; it's what's onscreen that's important. And there is so much there there.
Sorry about your having to practice tough love on your icons.
*lol* Yes I've quite recovered now, thank you! It's funny though how hard that is - this is what happens when I'm underemployed; I agonize over foolish things too much!
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 12:16 pm (UTC)As I understand it, Joss originally intended for there to be no sexual element to the relationship: more of a sibling-rivalry kind of thing. But then people started coming up to him and talking about the sexual subtext, and at first he was all, "What? There's no subtext, you're imagining things". But then he sat down and watched the episodes again, and light dawned and he was, "Oh. That subtext. Oops."
Then, to his everlasting credit, he decided to leave it in and even play up to it, rather than ordering the actors and directors to take it out. In the commentary to 'Bad Girls' Doug Petrie jokes that the actors kept putting in lesbian subtext and as director he "forgot to tell them to stop" or words to that effect.
Personally, I've always seen Buffy/Faith as a trial run for Willow/Tara the following year. It's hard to remember now how controversial and daring that was back in the day; I do wonder if they looked at the reaction of the fans and (more importantly) their own network executives to Buffy/Faith hints, saw that the sky didn't fall, and decided it was safe to do a lesbian relationship storyline 'properly' and openly instead of only through subtext.
(Many years later Eliza Dushku is still making jokes about the special 'lost episode' of BtVS where Faith and Buffy hooked up.)
********
In your icon #8, it's the end of the fight scene in 'Revelations'. Buffy and Faith have just been trying to beat each other up on false pretences, when they suddenly realise Gwendolen Post (Mrs) is the real enemy.
*******
My own interpretation of the Faith~Buffy relationship is something like this:
Faith is roughly a 3 on the Kinsey scale, but it's not something she thinks about much: self-analysis isn't really her thing. But in S3 she started to fall in love with Buffy: full-on, romantic love. That terrified her, even though she didn't really understand it. Love, to her, was all based on manipulation and deceit, so what she was feeling couldn't be real. She tried to keep Buffy at arm's length while simultaneously longing for her to get closer. The resulting mixed signals left Buffy horribly confused.
Buffy, meanwhile, I'd peg as a Kinsey 1; not entirely immune to same-sex attraction but only in a minor way. In S3 she was still pretty clueless about sexuality issues, though, and I don't think the nature of Faith's feelings for her ever crossed her mind. Perhaps she sensed unconsciously that there was something unusually intense about the nature of Faith's feelings for her: and this simultaneously attracted and scared off Buffy without her realising why.
(If Faith had appeared in a later season instead, after Willow came out to Buffy and forced her to re-evaluate her thoughts on sexuality, I can imagine things going differently. But in S3 Buffy really hadn't ever had to think about such matters.)
Then came the events of 'Bad Girls' and 'Consequences', and poor messed-up Faith was confronted by the sight of Buffy pulling away from her in shock and fear, using words like 'dirty' and 'sick', and talking about turning her in to the police. I think her turning to the Mayor instead of Buffy then was to a large extent due to a feeling of personal betrayal - "love to anger turned" - though obviously compounded by the actions of the other Scoobies and Wesley.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 07:01 pm (UTC)Oh, Joss...was his attention already wandering to other projects? I guess I shouldn't blame him too much; I was in a workshop in college about women in the movies once and they showed a clip from Friend Green Tomatoes where Idgie woos Ruth by quoting from the Book of Ruth ("Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay.") and they stare long and longingly at one another, all the litlte markers of "romantic scenario" except for any overt declarations or kisses.
And a roomful of very intelligent (presumably straight) white women DID NOT see the subtext until I pointed it out.
Personally, I've always seen Buffy/Faith as a trial run for Willow/Tara the following year. It's hard to remember now how controversial and daring that was back in the day; I do wonder if they looked at the reaction of the fans and (more importantly) their own network executives to Buffy/Faith hints, saw that the sky didn't fall, and decided it was safe to do a lesbian relationship storyline 'properly' and openly instead of only through subtext.
Probably so. Watching W/T now I am very aware of the cultural context of the day. And in some ways Buffy & Faith's rivalry is a trial run for S6's Dark Willow - women competing for the limited "prizes" and goodies (attention, power, praise, responsibility, etc) handed out sparingly by the patriarchy represented by the WC and Giles. Both emphasize the need to break out of the system (or find a way inside of it, however you want to read it.)
Also - girl fights.
I know about the outcry over the tropes in SR when Tara was killed, but I also find it interesting that the episode that most strongly hints at B/F subtext, and in which Buffy responds to Faith's encouragement to "let loose", is also the episode in which Faith accidentally kills Allen and begins to "go bad". It could be read as a much more subtle use of the "lesbianism/bisexuality = badness" trope - And I am NOT saying it's meant to be homophobic or done intentionally. We all have unexamined prejudices and cultural tropes that we're not really aware of (myself included!), Joss & Co being no exception to that.
In your icon #8, it's the end of the fight scene in 'Revelations'
Thanks!
If Faith had appeared in a later season instead, after Willow came out to Buffy and forced her to re-evaluate her thoughts on sexuality, I can imagine things going differently. But in S3 Buffy really hadn't ever had to think about such matters.
I agree. (I didn't come out until my late twenties in part because I didn't "have to think about it" when I was younger - loving women was never talked about or shown as a possibility except in terms of it being something shameful.) And of course Buffy still has strong feeling for Angel and wants to be with him. I don't tend to think in numbers on a scale because to me it's a continuum, a sliding scale, but Kinsey was the first, and he had to start somewhere.
Faith I definitely see as conflicted - so many layers to that, as Ryan (lj user=wickedbish>) spells out downthread. She envies Buffy's life, a loving mother and good home - how could she not? - and wants that for herself, to be the "#1 son" to a devoted Watcher; she wants to both "be" Buffy and "be with" Buffy. Faith literally "gets inside" Buffy in TYG/WAY (the only other person to do so is Willow in TWotW. Possibly Tara if you see that as Tara's actual spirit and not a projection in a dream.)
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 07:33 pm (UTC)Definitely disagree on the actual events. Buffy talked about what "We need to do", and encouraged Faith to turn herself in; she tried to connect but Faith (understandably scared) denied responsibility
Buffy: Faith, we need to talk about what we're gonna do.
Faith: There's nothing to talk about. I was doing my job.
Buffy: Being a Slayer is not the same as being a killer. Faith, please don't shut me out here. Look, sooner or later, we're both gonna have to deal.
Faith: Wrong.
Buffy: We can help each other.
Faith: I don't need it.
Buffy: Yeah? Who's wrong now? Faith, you can shut off all the emotions that you want. But eventually, they're gonna find a body.
Faith: Okay, this is the last time we're gonna have this conversation, and we're not even having it now, you understand me? There is no body. I took it, weighted it, and dumped it. The body doesn't exist.
Buffy: Getting rid of the evidence doesn't make the problem go away.
Faith: It does for me.
Buffy: Faith, you don't get it. You killed a man.
Faith: No, you don't get it. I don't care!
it could be argued Buffy is negligent for NOT going to the authorities sooner. She's going against her own moral code: see "Ted" where she believes she's killed a man and takes responsibility for it. & When Buffy uses the word "dirty" it's in terms of herself as well:
Buffy: It's just, look at you, Faith. Less than twenty-four hours ago, you killed a man. A-and now it's all zip-a-dee-doo-dah? It's not *your* real face, and I know it. Look, I know what you're feeling because I'm feeling it, too.
Faith: Do you? So fill me in 'cause I'd like to hear this.
Buffy: Dirty. Like something sick creeped inside you and you can't get it out. And you keep hoping that it was just some nightmare, but it wasn't. And we are gonna have to figure out...
Faith: Is there gonna be an intermission in this?
Buffy: Just let me talk to Giles, okay? I swear...
Faith: No! We're not bringing anybody else into this. You gotta keep your head, B. This is all gonna blow over in a few days.
Buffy: And if it doesn't?
Faith: If it doesn't, they got a freighter leaving the docks at least twice a day. It ain't fancy, but it gets you gone.
Buffy: And that's it? You just live with it? You see the dead guy in your head every day for the rest of your life?
Faith: Buffy, I'm not gonna see anything. I missed the mark last night and I'm sorry about the guy. I really am! But it happens! Anyway, how many people do you think we've saved by now,
thousands? And didn't you stop the world from ending? Because in my book, that puts you and me in the plus column.
Buffy: We help people! It doesn't mean we can do whatever we want.
Faith: Why not? The guy I offed was no Gandhi. I mean, we just saw he was mixed up in dirty dealings.
Buffy: Maybe, but what if he was coming to us for help?
Faith: What if he was? You're still not seeing the big picture, B. Something made us different. We're warriors. We're built to kill.
Buffy: To kill demons! But it does not mean that we get to pass judgment on people like we're better than everybody else!
Faith: We are better! That's right, better. People need us to survive. In the balance, nobody's gonna cry over some random bystander who got caught in the crossfire.
She goes to Giles only after Willow advises it:
Buffy: I know I've kept things from you before, but....But, um, but I-I've been blowing off my classes. You know, in-in the sense of not attending. And, uh...
Faith: It's okay, Buffy. I told him.
Buffy: You told him?
Faith: I had to. He had to know what you did.
Buffy: What I did?
Faith's trying to take advantage of her knowledge, that Buffy lied about Angel's return earlier in the year. I'm not seeing the wrong here on Buffy's side. I think it weighs more heavily on the adults who fail Faith over and over again: Faith's mom being a poor parent; the WC not making sure their Slayers are taken care of; Gwen's betrayal, Giles & Wesley not handling it well, and so forth.
Now stabbing Faith in the stomach in GD? BIG WRONG. But that's another story.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 10:22 pm (UTC)Faith is a lot more traumatised by the killing than she lets on (see her reaction when she goes back to the body; or how in 'Sanctuary' a year later she's still having PTSD-style flashbacks to it); but she's also someone who's known since childhood that if you show any weakness at all, people will take advantage of you. That's why she tells Buffy she "doesn't care". I think she's trying to convince herself of that as much as she's trying to convince Buffy. Caring is a weakness; weakness makes you vulnerable.
Note how many different stages of denial Faith goes through:
"It doesn't matter, I was just doing my job, it's no big deal."
"I can make the problem go away; there is no body,
it never really happened.""I can leave this all behind, I can skip town and keep on running."
"I'm not a bad person, I've saved thousands of lives, you can't blame me for killing him."
"He was a bad person. Maybe he deserved to die. Maybe I did a good thing by killing him."
"You and I are better than normal people. I had the right to kill him. You can't blame me."
"Maybe I can get you to take the blame for this instead of me. It was your fault."
As for Buffy pulling away from Faith... I don't think Buffy herself would describe it that way. I think she'd say she was reaching out desperately to Faith, trying to help her. But from Faith's point of view, I think she felt Buffy was betraying her.
Faith's in denial, remember. She's desperately trying to convince herself that this was no big deal, that it doesn't matter, that there'll be no consequences. Instead of Buffy agreeing with her - colluding with her denial, that is - Buffy says exactly what Faith least wants to hear. Buffy says it's a huge deal, that it's a really serious, major, important problem that is not going away and Faith has to face it.
Buffy uses the words 'dirty' and 'sick'. Yes, she doesn't actually say that Faith is dirty and sick, but rather assumes that's how Faith must be feeling. Which is probably quite true, in fact - but again, denial. What Faith desperately wants at that point is for Buffy to reassure her; shrug, tell her it's no big deal, she did nothing wrong, she shouldn't worry about it. Buffy can't do that - not least because she's in a panic herself, of course - and instead does the exact opposite.
Buffy might not specifically say she'd going to call the police herself, but she raises the matter. Again, see it from Faith's perspective: teenage runaway, high school drop-out, petty criminal, comes from a broken home; it's a fair bet she regards any form of official authority with intense suspicion. Buffy with her nice middle-class background and nice-middle class mom and nice cosy relationship with her Watcher; she has no such fears. And for Faith at that moment, in a state of panic and denial, for Buffy to start talking about them going to the police - I think it would seem like the final betrayal.
"Buffy is going to side with the authorities; given her background of course she is. It was a mistake for gutter trash like me to ever see her as an ally or a friend
or a lover"no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 09:48 pm (UTC)In Buffy S3? It was wandering to 'Angel' the series. :) But to be fair to him, I think any creator would feel the same way when fans give an interpretation to the story you didn't put there yourself.
Thought experiment: imagine you write a story where Tara meets Spike, and they banter with each other and compare notes on Willow and Buffy, and it's a nice fluffy friendship fic. Then one of your readers leaves a comment saying, "Wow, that was so incredibly hot! I've never read Spike/Tara before, but the sexual subtext in your fic really turned me on (literally!) to that pairing! Please please write a sequel where they actually get it on together!
Would you be pleased? Or horrified? Would you stare blankly at your fic thinking, "How on earth did they see hetero subtext in this?" :)
I am NOT saying it's meant to be homophobic or done intentionally.
I do think one of the themes that runs through BtVS, that a lot of people in present-day fandom find objectionable, is the idea that "wild uncontrolled casual sex is kind of a bad thing, you know?" It's perhaps understandable in a show started in the 1990s for a US broadcast TV network aimed at teenagers, but it doesn't really fit with a modern sex-positive ideology.
So yes, in 'Bad Girls' we see Buffy flirting with Faith, and Buffy flirting with a bunch of strange guys on the dancefloor in the Bronze, and Buffy leaping on Angel and wrapping her legs around him in public, and I do think we're meant to think this is a bad thing - whereas most people in fandom are probably cheering her on! I don't think it's specifically meant to be homophobic in particular, since after all it's Angel who is shown to be made uncomfortable by her behaviour towards him, not Faith.
I don't tend to think in numbers on a scale because to me it's a continuum, a sliding scale, but Kinsey
To me, the Kinsey Scale is just a convenient shorthand. There's no reason it can't represent a continuum, with Buffy being a 0.9, Faith being a 3.4 and Willow being a 4.9 on the scale! :)
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 10:34 pm (UTC)Of course you would pick the combo I loathe with the burning passion of a thousand white-hot suns, sweetie. NEVER would I write those two together. EVER. But I do get your point in general, and of course I'm all about interpretation of the text within reason.
it doesn't really fit with a modern sex-positive ideology.
Right, it does fit with the theme of "Buffy's bad sex life" - which also demonstrates that Joss is thoroughly of his own time and a product of his upbringing, and not necessarily as "subversive" as he likes to think or as his fans claim he is (which came first, the chicken or the egg?) Is making Faith "go bad" right at the same time as the subtext comes very close to text accidental? Probably. Was it necessary? Maybe not. But it's there nonetheless, and I'd be untrue to myself and everyone if I pretended I don't notice this stuff. I also noticed what a great job he did with complex characters, etc.
whereas most people in fandom are probably cheering her on!
To do what? Get down with Faith or with Angel? I know I found her jumping on Angel like that like a little girl kind of gross, but Angel's reaction is genuinely funny and actually appropriate to the situation. She's almost behaving like someone who's slightly high or inebriated and her self-censoring mechanism is lowered.
To me, the Kinsey Scale is just a convenient shorthand. There's no reason it can't represent a continuum, with Buffy being a 0.9, Faith being a 3.4 and Willow being a 4.9 on the scale! :)
*giggles*
:) srlsly, that sounds a bit like the butch-femme scale - I was in a lesbian group in the '90's and it was a 1-10 thing, 1 being very femme, 5 being perfectly androgynous, and EVERYBODY wanted to be as close to that as possible like it was some holdover of the perfect lesbian-feminist ideal of gender erasure; I was a little disappointed that I was rated a 2 or 3 - and I knew damn well I'm quite femme. I wore skirts and long hair! (Adding combat boots did not make me more "butch". It's something you are or are not.)
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 12:04 am (UTC)Very pretty faith icons - not having watched any of S3 I'm not really up on her story with Buffy and I simply have not read any fem slash other than a little of valyssia's who by the way, is a most marvellous writer. Just not interested in that genre which is so wierd because I always thought I had tendencies that way. Oh well, each to our own I guess and because I'm Spike obsessed I guess I rarely read anything that does not feature him.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 05:27 pm (UTC)not having watched any of S3 I'm not really up on her story with Buffy
You've mentioned that before (are you TRYING to wring my heart in your hands and toss it on the ground like a wet rag? Cruel Mistress. *LMAO*) Srsly, you know what I'm going to say. I wasn't "into" the idea of a show set in high school myself, and that kept me from watching it for over ten years. Silly me.
But I can be patient. ;)
Just not interested in that genre which is so wierd because I always thought I had tendencies that way.
Honey, I AM a lesbian, full-stop, and I not only read but I write more fic with hetero pairings than not. Which should be really weird, right? I think there's something about
I've noticed that the folks in this fandom who write f/f - and very good at that - are male, female, gay, straight, bi, whatever.
I rarely read anything that does not feature him.
To each our own as you say. I read Buffy&Spike almost exclusively for the longest time, but I'm starting to branch out because one pairing all the time gets dull, like eating steak or salmon EVERY single night for dinner. I want a good story, good writing.
I don't ship Buffy/Giles f.ex. but
The same with Buffy/Angelus, but
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 06:55 pm (UTC)But I can be patient. ;) That's good because I'm seriously cash strapped at the mo so no BTVS purchases in the forseeable future, grin.
that writing a lesbian pairing is "too close to home" That's an interesting theroy though I got to wonder why it would not be the same for a het writer then. It's all really wierd. I know that loads of the m/m is written by het women and I can see that actually. I mean guys aren't the only ones who want to see the opposite sex have each other - grin. I have to admit though, that I always thought femslash was written by lesbians, silly me. Of course if your breathing and reasonably healthy, sex with anyone is interesting. :D
I read Buffy&Spike almost exclusively for the longest time
I don't think I've ever been this hooked on a charachter before and I'm not sure why. I have ut it down to the fact I'd never heard of fanfic before now so my indulgences in previous charachters were only via the actual shows they were in. I've never been into buying other than movies on dvd either but of ourse now I can surround myself in Spike 24/7 if I want. I do not however watch the eps that I do own anymore.
I've read Spike/Angel, Spike/Xander (so much for this one for some reason and I find I'm getting quite over it and simply cannot read any that is set during the series - just wrong), Spike/Giles, Spike/Willow, Spike/Tara, Spike/Dru, Spike/Darla, Spike/Other, Spike/Spike - damn he is a slut! Seriously, I'm am so stuck on that charachter. I signed up for a remix thingy and the author I'm doing is mostly writes Xander and NO Spike. I'm having the hardest time doing it!
Maybe I just haven't been here long enough to move on. I read some of valyssia's work a while back for the feedbackathon and I really enjoyed the writing. She really is very good and I thought I would go back and finish the story I began, but I haven't. Anyway, I know what you are saying. It's the writing not the charachters that matter and that's true. I'm just not ready to move on yet, I guess. And no, don't want to read B/G - even well written.
I think too, that having watched the show, having my own ideas of what the charachters are makes it hard to get involved in a story that whose charachters are 'off', especially if the writing is not quite up to scratch. Actually, I haven't been reading much at all other than Spike fic for so long. The odd audiobook and that's about it. God, I'm wandering on today. Love these little chats with you , my hand maiden. Make me think a while. I think I have to go write some femslash. At least, I need to get back to WTF and finish it. People apparently like it. :D
no subject
Date: 2013-11-29 07:32 pm (UTC)And I definitely hear you about budget - I only got to watch Buffy because my sweetie pays for a Netflix account! Same for a friend of mine I'd rec'd it to when a sibling paid for Hulu. And in terms of not being I interested in the high school years, that might be half the reason I avoided it for so long. (I'm trying to recall a single truly happy school memory and I got nothing.)
And as far as Barb's theory I suspect it differs for everyone. I couldn't say if it was true of het authors or not - I've learned that I cannot assume a fan writer's gender or orientation. In fact the majority of m/m authors in any fandom are female. The adult women who wrote Star Trek fic decades ago and created or popularized modern fanfic were the ones who shipped Kirk/Spock/McCoy et cetera. Because the men had the only ineresting relationships in canon. And probably there was that level of safe remove but also role-play, exploring a different dynamic than m/f ones, which come with certain pre-set assumptions and conventions.
I have read a theory re: anime m/m shippers that the girls and women who write it may also be exploring the ideal of a more "equal" relationship (removing gender equalities.) I have heard plenty of married het women assume that would be true of lesbian relationships. Which is f-----g RUBBISH.
If you try your hand at femmeslash I'd read it. (Graphic sex scenes or PWP is of zero interest to me regardless of gender.) I If you understand the characters and general relationship dynamics there's no reason you couldn' get it right. You're constantly surprising me and when you set out to do something it gets done!
Oh and of the ships you read - at this point I will read almost any ship if the writing is really good. (Which is why I'll read il_mio_capitano' B/G fic and no one else's.) My exceptions are Bangel (bored now) but I will occasionally read B/A/S (Foxinator's "These Things") or Bangelus (leni_ba's Courting Sin 'verse.).
I cannot and will NOT read fic that 'ships Tara with ANY man for a host of reasons I won't go into here.
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Date: 2013-11-29 11:46 pm (UTC)Because the men had the only interesting relationships in canon.
You know I never thought of that but it is so true of so much of what we still see on the box. Hmmm. And fanfic was around for Star Trek? Wow, I am out of the loop and a latecomer, grin. Actually, I do wonder how far from a true m/m relationship the written word is. I imagine that it is, as all fictional relationships, not close at all but rather an amalgamation of reality and fantasy. Fiction must gives us that near perfect pairing because, I suppose, that we read to escape to a world we might imagine for ourselves, better than what we have or maybe worse if we are into self flagellation. I'm not into reality shows and never got too much into soaps that were based on what my world was at the time. I read to learn, to escape, to dream and, I guess, my dreams are still bigger than where I am currently. Certainly, if I watch tv or go to the movies I'm looking for escapism, entertainment, a little vacation from the real world. I might learn something while I'm there, but it is the best type of learning, subliminal. What I take from them is dependent on my life experiences and how open I am to change.
the ideal of a more "equal" relationship... You know I can see this so easily and have probably thought something similar. It's because we still live in a patriarchal hierarchy. Men are still the boss, so therefore if the relationship were two women there would be no boss. No boss must mean, partners. Very simplistic, idealist and of course totally forgetting the nature of humans. Also, all of us know the grass is always greener on the other side and in fiction. :)
Graphic sex scenes or PWP is of zero interest to me regardless of gender.
I could add here endless romance interludes where the sex is not graphic but it's there on almost every page. I do read such, I love it when it is well written but will generally skip over it after the second 'joining' because I really want the plot. Maybe I get enough sex, or am really good at pleasing myself so I don't need to read about it so much.
If you try your hand at femmeslash I'd read it
I'm not sure how much I would get into this genre other than the bits I've written in WTF which started of as a total tongue in cheek piece and started going off somewhere else leaving me wondering where to go with it. I really think my non writing of late is simply laziness. It's a discipline like anything else but I've been happy to play with Photoshop where I can grab a theme from somewhere and then let it run in images.
Tara with ANY man
You know, I agree with that. She is so well written into the role of lesbian, to me, that really I think it is rather an affront to the charachter to write her otherwise. She knows herself. She is centred. Willow, to me is bi and not because of her prior experience but her continued behaviour. She is still experimenting, learning. I don't know, that could be a load of crock. I've read two Spara stories that I did like but it is not a ship I look for.
If I were to enter a lesbian affair, I would so want Tara for a partner. Someone quietly strong to offset my brash/rash loudness but equally, perhaps more than, capable of leadership simply by the quiet self assurance. She would teach me to be a partner because I do want a 'partner', an equal.
Anya, would be the other choice. The experience of a thousand year old demon coupled with brash forthrightness. Oh yeah,
<i>Because the men had the only interesting relationships in canon. </i>
You know I never thought of that but it is so true of so much of what we still see on the box. Hmmm. And fanfic was around for Star Trek? Wow, I am out of the loop and a latecomer, grin. Actually, I do wonder how far from a true m/m relationship the written word is. I imagine that it is, as all fictional relationships, not close at all but rather an amalgamation of reality and fantasy. Fiction must gives us that near perfect pairing because, I suppose, that we read to escape to a world we might imagine for ourselves, better than what we have or maybe worse if we are into self flagellation. I'm not into reality shows and never got too much into soaps that were based on what my world was at the time. I read to learn, to escape, to dream and, I guess, my dreams are still bigger than where I am currently. Certainly, if I watch tv or go to the movies I'm looking for escapism, entertainment, a little vacation from the real world. I might learn something while I'm there, but it is the best type of learning, subliminal. What I take from them is dependent on my life experiences and how open I am to change.
<i>the ideal of a more "equal" relationship...</i> You know I can see this so easily and have probably thought something similar. It's because we still live in a patriarchal hierarchy. Men are still the boss, so therefore if the relationship were two women there would be no boss. No boss must mean, partners. Very simplistic, idealist and of course totally forgetting the nature of humans. Also, all of us know the grass is always greener on the other side and in fiction. :)
<i>Graphic sex scenes or PWP is of zero interest to me regardless of gender.</i>
I could add here endless romance interludes where the sex is not graphic but it's there on almost every page. I do read such, I love it when it is well written but will generally skip over it after the second 'joining' because I really want the plot. Maybe I get enough sex, or am really good at pleasing myself so I don't need to read about it so much.
<i>If you try your hand at femmeslash I'd read it</i>
I'm not sure how much I would get into this genre other than the bits I've written in WTF which started of as a total tongue in cheek piece and started going off somewhere else leaving me wondering where to go with it. I really think my non writing of late is simply laziness. It's a discipline like anything else but I've been happy to play with Photoshop where I can grab a theme from somewhere and then let it run in images.
<i>Tara with ANY man</i>
You know, I agree with that. She is so well written into the role of lesbian, to me, that really I think it is rather an affront to the charachter to write her otherwise. She knows herself. She is centred. Willow, to me is bi and not because of her prior experience but her continued behaviour. She is still experimenting, learning. I don't know, that could be a load of crock. I've read two Spara stories that I did like but it is not a ship I look for.
If I were to enter a lesbian affair, I would so want Tara for a partner. Someone quietly strong to offset my brash/rash loudness but equally, perhaps more than, capable of leadership simply by the quiet self assurance. She would teach me to be a partner because I do want a 'partner', an equal.
Anya, would be the other choice. The experience of a thousand year old demon coupled with brash forthrightness. Oh yeah, <i.that</i> would be a dance I'd want on my card. :D
Oops
Date: 2013-11-29 10:00 pm (UTC)Thank goodness it didn't lose the comment altogether.
Re: Oops
Date: 2013-11-29 10:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 12:17 am (UTC)Aaah, one of my proudest creations. And apparently not tagged since I couldn't find the original post right now, so I had to pilfer it back from
(And yes, when I first posted it, I did get a couple of comments from people since drifted away from my flist telling me in quite serious tone that they were NOT canon and they had NOTHING like that and blah blah blah.)
I do love that series, though. I think there's at least one more - that scene from FH&T where Joyce opens the door on Buffy and Faith, with the caption "Hey. I'm banging your daughter."
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Date: 2013-11-22 02:36 am (UTC)You are the BEST, sir thank you!
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Date: 2013-11-22 06:54 pm (UTC)Goodies.
Date: 2013-11-22 12:28 am (UTC)They're pretty as hell....just felt like saying so....and I totally understand the real-estate of the brain being soaked up by this. Never fear that you are alone...lol
Re: Goodies.
Date: 2013-11-22 08:19 pm (UTC)Oh goodness yes...(damn S3 Bangel angst for taking up so much room in the season.)
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 12:36 am (UTC)I like #5 best (I'm crude, and they're both so ridiculously pretty) although #6 is also adorable. I love #8 MASSIVELY (oh, Faith, my darling! *sobs*) but you know. The only thing better than a Faith icon is a Faith/Buffy icon.
Given the givens, I think you should drop the fourth.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 10:00 pm (UTC)Thanks, hon! (And I worried I'd be babbling to myself.)
I'm crude, and they're both so ridiculously pretty
Not crude at all - they are so pretty. I love all the ones with text in them, they make me giggle, esp 1 & 2. I won't shell out money to LJ just for more icons, so it's 15, alas. Otherwise I'd grab them all.
I think you should drop the fourth.
I can only use one of them at a time (unless I switch to all B/F, which isn't happening) - why don't you like #4, perchance? It amuses me in part because of the resemblance to Buffy and Spike in Becoming (the black stocking cap etc), which supports my theory that Fuffy is Spuffy without the sex (darn it.)
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 01:08 am (UTC)Sorry that you had to lose an icon today.
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Date: 2013-11-22 05:01 pm (UTC)Right? Sarah and Eliza have fantastic chemistry even in S7, and Faith has a much bigger impact on Buffy's story and the show in general than her actual screentime would indicate.
And there's so many layers. Does Faith want to be "with" Buffy, as a lover or a sister - Joyce is probably the first adult who's been kind to Faith - or "be" Buffy? I think a bit of both and all of it.
Sorry that you had to lose an icon today.
Heh. It's actually a win for me. Glass half full and all that jazz!
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 01:49 am (UTC)Also, I don't know why they're touching each other like that, but I believe No. 8 is from 3x7, "Revelations," the one with Faith's evil female Watcher.
Speaking of Buffy & Faith, I'm surprised you don't have an icon from "Bad Girls." Their dance at The Bronze is one of the sexiest scenes in the series.
I love your Willow/Tara icon! I used to have one just like it!
In conclusion, I thoroughly enjoyed this post.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 03:27 pm (UTC)This comment is MADE OF WIN.
and all of those scenes can be the exact same scene, and all three of those people can be completely correct.
Exactly, which probably makes it more interesting (and fun to play with in fanfic) than if things were spelled out. (Not that that would stop anybody from seeing what they want to see.)
Re: #8
Their dance at The Bronze is one of the sexiest scenes in the series.
You inspired me to rewatch it and, yeah - they could have let the cameras run longer (a lot longer *ahem*). There was an icon from that scene on fanpop.com but I wasn't enamored of it; it was too dark. (I've seen better ones here on LJ but not recently.)
In conclusion, I thoroughly enjoyed this post.
*passes plate of cookies* Aw, thanks for stopping by and commenting hon; I aim to please!
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Date: 2013-11-23 12:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 08:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 02:53 pm (UTC)I am 100% Spuffy ... so it means that the other cahracters begin to lose their impact. I have re-seen season 1, and enjoyed learning about them again. These Faith pictures are re-inspiring me.
*dusts off hands* Then my work here is done! *LOL*
Actually you're one-up one me. I've rewatched episodes in the early seasons but not rewatched all the way through, so good on you.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 06:02 pm (UTC)The icons are gorgeous and funny. I lolled at the "Subtext" one with Buffy and Faith reading something. XD
Talking about Fuffy (Or Baith. Baith doesn't sound better to you? Fuffy seems like a dog name or some kind of hoover. I don't know.) I must admit that my OTP is Buffy/Spike but I was fascinated by some pairings during the watching of the episodes (At some point, when I was younger, I even shipped Bangel and sometimes I even wrote Bangel - or, at some other point I shipped Spangel and I wrote a lot more about them) ultimately Spike/Buffy became my endgame for different reasons.
BUT, but, but.
Faith and Buffy together are too gorgeous for words. Faith is a very sensual character and I have a huge crush on SMG - don't let me even start/don't judge me. Picturying them together is kinda hot. (Plus, know that I think about it, Faith and Buffy have totally the same Loki/Thor dynamic. And I ship Loki/Thor with the burning passion of thousand suns)
My happy (and also angsty, at times) Fuffy place is post series, when they are more wiser and Faith knows more of what it means to love someone and to sacrifice for them. And latest seasons Buffy is mothereffin' HOT. Who doesn't want to jump on that? I sure that Faith would appreciate a lot.
My motivations are shallow. I'm shallow-girl.
Late comment is late
Date: 2013-11-28 01:05 am (UTC)And I'm sure Faith would appreciate your enthusiasm very much, - let your freak flag fly! - although I also ship Dawn/Faith post-series! (Buffy isn't quite sure what to make of that. (Her metaphorical sister Slayer and grandchild hooking up with her real (former Keyness) sister? Kind of a mind-fuck.)
And I definitely shipped Bangel through the end of S2. I've read people claim that Sarah and David had no chemistry but that's not what I thought at the time - admitting that doesn't tarnish my preference for Buffy&Spike!
Re: Late comment is late
Date: 2013-11-28 01:25 am (UTC)Not really. There are few stories about them and there aren't forums or sites involved with the pairing, as far I as know. (And I'm in the fandom since six/seven years ago) The popular ships, I guess, are still the canonic Spuffy, Bangel and Tillow (with some other hetero non-canon pairings as Faith/Angel and male slash stuff) As far as I know there aren't many Fuffy fans over here. Pity.
(Still, the name Fuffy makes me think about a small dog XD)
Dawn/Faith has potential. I don't ship it but I would like to know about - I think it would be intriguing. I generally think that Dawn would fall in love for a guy like Spike or generally a friendly guy with lot of sense of humor. (I don't know if it makes sense, but that's my only headcanon about Dawn and love stories. I'm totally refusing to accept Xander/Dawn as a thing.)
Re: Late comment is late
Date: 2013-11-29 10:31 pm (UTC)I don't have direct links but if you search Faith/Dawn or Dawn/Faith at AO3 you can find some; or just check out brutti_ma_buoni's or beer_good_foamy's fic if you haven't already. BGF is an awesome Dawn writer anyway.
I see Dawn as being more flexible or nonchalant about her sexuality even though there's no proof of that in canon - it's.
fanon. But she's a W/T shipper, whereas that wasn't even on Buffy' radar until Willow came out. Things have changed rather rapidly; I didn't come out of the closet until my 20's whereas my sister, who is eight years younger than me, had friends who came out in high school and even younger and it was no big deal to her.
I can't ship Dawn with Xander mostly because of the "family" vibe esp S7. (Buffy/Giles shipping mystifies me!) Eurydice72's post-series Spuffy fic A Stone's Throw from Yesterday is an exception; her Dawn is mature and believable and calls Xander out on his shit.
Some writers ship Dawn/Andrew but that's a huge NO for me. She deserves better.
And I kind of feel the same way about "Fuffy" as a smushname as I do about "Spuffy" - too close to "fluffy" and too cutesy for those very dark and twisted ships; but I don't think Baith is an improvement in English. Although maybe you should do a poll!
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 07:08 pm (UTC)Oh, and point number 3 in the intro is what I'm all about. You know that, but it IS. Fandom, you best take note, because the honorary Summers club is coming for you.
Sidetracked. Anyway, those icons are really cool! I can't pick a favourite. Nope, not happening. Too pretty. (I think I've seen the subtext one before, as well).
And Honey you recced me again! Thank you so much! I am really proud of that story, though. Tara you are all the kinds of awesome, we love you. And if I have to shove you down fandom's throat until they agree then so be it!
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Date: 2013-11-22 10:10 pm (UTC)Preachin' to the choir, sister!
Fandom, you best take note, because the honorary Summers club is coming for you.
the Revolution starts here...
Thank you so much! I am really proud of that story, though.
You're welcome, and as well you should be! You've written so many I've wanted to link to - and I've noticed the Sunnydale herald has linked to your fics. Very cool. the folks there really put in a lot of major work.
And if I have to shove you down fandom's throat until they agree then so be it!
"Seduce", not "shove". Lure them in gently and get them hooked. ;)
(FYI - re: "neverland", I've tried copy-pasting and the formats won't mesh on Pages docs or google docs, so I'm retyping from scratch and making changes as I go.)
Re: Neverland
Date: 2013-11-22 10:19 pm (UTC)Re: Neverland
Date: 2013-11-22 10:37 pm (UTC)Re: Neverland
Date: 2013-11-22 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-23 04:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-23 04:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-28 01:23 am (UTC)Re: Buffy/Faith vs Buffy/Satsu in the comics I'm in total agreement.
You gave me a brainwave though - Dawn/Satsu. Or Dawn & Satsu. Think about it - closer in age, both intelligent and capable (I'm talking about S7 Dawn of course - yet another missed opportunity / fuck up in the comics); Dawn's bossy like her sister but not as tightly wound, Satsu is superficially more submissive but has a steely core. They'd balance each other.
Fandom could totally make it a thing. *lol*
VDnbDpDdKACvJshEaZjyhsZPjhqaVCOTYuSUtUkmdXqoqKntS
Date: 2014-08-01 06:33 am (UTC)