"Welcome to the Hellmouth" / "Bring on The Night"

[red_satin_doll]

"You're standing at the mouth of Hell. And it's about to open up." *

***
"I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared.
I'm standing on the mouth of Hell and it's going to swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me." **

* Joss Whedon
** Marti Noxon & Douglas Petrie

Comments

[kikimay]

I love S5 to S7 fashion. And, yes, she's much more believable with jeans but she also wears sometimes really cute outfit. In S4 she's really young student/mode on. And personally I ADORE the cherries dress she wears in the Restless dream. It's so cuuuute!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I ADORE the cherries dress she wears in the Restless dream. It's so cuuuute!

I might like it more if it didn't have cherries on it? Cherries have long been symbols of 1) virginity, and/or 2) sexual desire and fulfillment; so when I saw that print on a dress in which nearly everything is some sort of symbol, I thought "You have got to be kidding me. Really, Joss?"

[kikimay]

I didn't know this association between cherries and virginity until I started reading English fanfics. I think we don't have it! I'm more like: cute dress. Cherries are cute and red. :3 (Also, she wears another cherry dress in The Freshman, but the second one is cuter in my opinion)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Cherries are cute and red.

I like cherries (esp in RL) so if that dress had shown up in any other episode I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But in an episode screaming "SYMBOLISM!", it's different. I'm actually not crazy about this episode - or at least I like everyone else's dreams but by the time they got to Buffy it was the first time watching the series I actually said aloud "Bored now". (And I was by myself in the room.)

I prefer it when the show weaves the symbolism in for me to find, instead of marking it out with a great big neon sign. (Of course the house falling down in Smashed isn't exactly "subtle" but it still allows for a variety of interpretations as well as the literal level of the story itself. Dream sequences don't work on a "story level" because they are outside the story. I think Dead Things is a masterpiece, but I'm not as crazy about the "dream sequence"; the entire episode has the feeling of a fever dream so ironically sticking a dream sequence into it feels off.)

she wears another cherry dress in The Freshman

She does? I'll look for that on rewatch. I think S4 is extremely underrated.

[kikimay]

I understand. Since in my culture - or, at least, for what I know - cherries don't simbolyze sexuality in particular I completely missed the symbolism and I was more like Anya: "It's so pretty! I wish it was mine!" (Seriously, I want a dress like that. I think it's so pretty!)
I also think that S4 is underrated. I think it's a nice season to rewatch and I like happy!Buffy. I like all the Scoobies in S4 and I like the stand-alone episodes like Something Blue or Pangs or Hush. I love things that makes me laugh.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I think there's more to S4 than the standalones. The Big Bad that season is sort of a let-down but everything that happens in S4 foreshadows what's to come for the remainder of the show. the "standalones" really aren't so much - WAY, for instance, foreshadows Buffy and Spike in a way that's darker and more real to what happens in S6 than SB (although the bathtub scene in SB is aces.) It's the first time Tara "sees" the real Buffy in a way that her friends don't, etc

[kikimay]

Yes, there's a lot of good stuff in S4. Personally I would liked also the Initiative storyline if it was done differently, I guess. It's really about power, legality and order: some of the most important themes in BtVS. I also liked Maggie Walsh. I wish she was good. But, yes, S4 is really important for the character. Plus, funny stuff and happy!Buffy.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

It's really about power, legality and order: some of the most important themes in BtVS.

And as molly_may wrote in a meta fic it's the season where "magic makes Buffy it's bitch"; so it's about the misuse and abuse of power; the form it takes (Magic or technology) doesn't matter. Any form of power can be abused.

And the introduction of Tara - the first long-term lesbian relationship on TV! You'd think it would have paved the way for more such depictions but - no. It still feels "pioneering" all these years later. The Willow/Tara scenes in Hush and WAY are some of the most erotic of the entire series.

[kikimay]

I also think about fascism. It's the season in which Faith comes back and she believed in superiority of slayers. And, yes, Tara and Willow. I love the spell/sex scene in WAY so much more erotic than the Kennedy/Willow scene even if that was much more explicit.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

No contest on the love scenes - although I DO NOT hate Kennedy. Again, I think she's rather awesome in her own ways - and yes, she's spoiled, but she's young, too, and I love her date with Willow.

I'd be fascinated to hear more about your take re: fascism on the show, because I can't pretend to have made a study of it by any means; so what I know is the 101 version. I assume you're referring to the Initiative?

And yes, I agree that Maggie would have made a better big bad for S4, but Lindsay Crouch had to/wanted to leave the show for other projects. I had actually hoped that she would be a role model for Buffy and/or Willow, because mature women on the show are in very short supply. Jenny is killed, Gwendolyn Post is evil, Joyce exists almost entirely as "Mom" and that's really it.

Barring that, Adam could have been a great big bad if they'd handled it right.

[kikimay]

I think that the Initiative has some fascistic hints, after all they wanted to build the perfect soldier and to neutralize in secret an entire race (demons)
You know, I actually like Adam. It's an interesting creature and the most scary Big Bad. (At least to me. I think he's so scary, brrr!) What did go wrong? I think it was Riley. Professor Walsh was an interesting character and so the concept of the Initiative. IMHO, Riley was the weakest link: we were supposed to being interested in his moral conflict (Buffy VS the Initiative) and being interested in his understanding of the truth and everything ... but we didn't.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

That was always one of my main problems with the season 4 central arc (sorry to butt in!) It made Riley the emotional focus so, while I can enjoy season 4 for one-off episodes and a happier Buffy, I couldn't really connect with the big arc episodes making the emotional focus Riley clutching on to Buffy's scarf and finding out what he had believed about Prof.Walsh was a lie, or rebelling against the government and declaring himself an anarchist. It was Buffy's story that I cared about, and she wasn't particularly emotionally gutted by Adam or the Initiative the way that she had been in previous seasons by the Master, Angelus,and Faith, so there wasn't all that much heart there for me to care about

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

It made Riley the emotional focus so, while I can enjoy season 4 for one-off episodes and a happier Buffy, I couldn't really connect with the big arc episodes making the emotional focus Riley

Excellent point. Joss complained later about Riley being a boring character, but that's his job as a writer, to find what is interesting in each character or else what the hell are they there for?

It was Buffy's story that I cared about, and she wasn't particularly emotionally gutted by Adam or the Initiative the way that she had been in previous seasons by the Master, Angelus,and Faith, so there wasn't all that much heart there for me to care about

It's telling that one of my favorite episodes of the season - and one of my favorites of the entire series - is Who Are You, which deals with the fallout of Faith and Buffy's relationship in S4. It's my headcanon that the switch affected Buffy as much as it does Faith. If Faith is altered by being inside Buffy's body and eventually sets herself on the path to redemption, I think the reverse is also true. I don't know if that's canon, but thematically, the episode foreshadows Buffy's increasing darkness, self-doubt, her relationship with Spike in S6 (DT hangs a lantern on this, in fact).

My fondness for S4 stems more perhaps by how the events reverberate through the remaining seasons rather than the season itself. Or, I actually like it quite a bit except for Riley/Adam, so, hmm.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Joss also called Riley well-adjusted...which he most certainly wasn't. I can't say as I found him boring, really. It's just he's not the main character and his issues are never really addressed so he just ended up being annoying in many ways.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I liked him in S4 mostly because Buffy seemed happy with him - non-traumatic sex and all that - and didn't get the fandom hate for him; and then S5 hit and that was all she wrote, folks.

[kikimay]

I hate the fact that Joss still think he was "a good guy". And he was, ultimately, but he was also so messed up and parading around his big wounded ego and I wanted to someone to just point it out: Riley, you're a good guy but damn if you complain too much!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

For a moment there I wasn't sure if you were talking about Joss or Riley! Because they sure sound the same - the big wounded egos, etc. Joss acts like a baby when he doesn't get his way.

I'm not sure if I'd define Riley as "good or bad"; I think he's far more morally ambiguous than he wants to think he is. He wants to see himself as a white hat, but neither does he want to question the system or think about it to hard. As long as he can put things in neat little categories he feels safe. To me in that way he isn't heroic in the way that Buffy and Spike are.

And isn't that at the heart of fascism?

[kikimay]

And isn't that at the heart of fascism?

It is! Nice catch and nice analysis of Riley. I guess that I see him as "good" because he strongly believes that he's good but he does questionable things and he basically has this strong internal system because he's "the soldier", he's always been the soldier and he will always be. But soldiers are not always heroes.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

It is! Nice catch and nice analysis of Riley.

I'm actually cribbing off norwie2010 quite a bit, but thanks!

he's always been the soldier and he will always be. But soldiers are not always heroes.

Might doesn't make right. But if you're carrying the gun, you need to believe that, I think.

I do think he sees himself as lightened and liberal to an extent - liberal but not progressive or transgressive. He admires strong women, he marries someone who is his peer, but he's making adjustments to the system, not radical changes.

[kikimay]

Again, I agree with your - and Norwie- analysis. I think it's frustrating for the audience because Buffy often doubts about herself and her judgement while Riley mostly doesn't.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I think it's frustrating for the audience because Buffy often doubts about herself and her judgement while Riley mostly doesn't.

I had to process that a bit, but you're right. At least it's frustrating for those of us who love Buffy? (or maybe just you and me? IDK) After watching the show I was still steaming about it (thanks for nothing AYW! grrrr....) and said something along the lines of "Buffy wouldn't run after the helicopter she wouldn't beg or buckle like that," blah blah - and then someone said to me "Parker". Which then reminded me of how she blames herself for him (she has to go into CaveBuffy mode to take her anger out on him - which is funny in-context but if you think about it a minute, it's another proof that Buffy hasn't learned healthy coping skills. Then again, none of these kids have. You don't become healthy and well-adjusted in a vacuum!)

This is why Riley isn't a hero to me - he starts to wade into his own darkness, gets scared and runs away to create a life that looks very shiny on the outside at least. He projects what he wants others to see in him. Which, good for him on one level, but what happens the next time there's a crisis? There's an emptiness to him, IMO. And that's a lot of what I like about S7 - Buffy and the SG are trying to take responsibility for their own actions without taking on someone else's responsibility, whether with words or actions. (I include Spike in that, and I know that's a controversial thing to say.) The First and Giles arriving, actually, sidetrack Buffy on that account until nearly the end of the season.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah. One of the few areas where I put my foot down with my very expressive kid is: no cherry prints. "Why not?" she says. "Get the strawberry fabric instead," I say. "You're weird," she says. This has been going on since she was 14, but I think she's figured it out by now, 3 years later. ;-) It's a ridiculous line to draw in the sand, but I don't want her to unwittingly project some Lolita thing, and I don't want to quash her love to cute cherry prints. She can wear them when she's an adult.

I'm open to negotiation on things like pet snakes and cartilage piercings — but NO DAMN CHERRRIES!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

"Get the strawberry fabric instead," I say.

:) Ironically enough, you just reminded me that when my sweetie and I were first together 17 years ago (I had been a virgin when I met her), "eating strawberries" was our codeword for "making love". I'll leave the "why" to your imagination. So I don't know if that'll affect your feeling on strawberry prints!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Nah, I'm not trying to keep her from having a sex life. That would be mean. I just want her sexual identity to come from a position of strength and positivity, not the "oh look how sexy my lack of sexuality is" that comes with cherry imagery. Grrr. I may be...over-reacting.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I may be...over-reacting.

But then that's your job, isn't it - to protect her? But not protect her too much...and nobody can really tell you how to do it. No user's manual.

I decided in my teens I didn't want to be a parent. Being the oldest of four latchkey kids convinced me of that, and I don't regret it. I would have been utterly clueless, so my hat's off to you for having the courage to raise children, esp a daughter in this day and age. Sex is everywhere, we're saturated in it in ways that would have been unimaginable to me growing up even in the '70's and '80's.