red_satin_doll: (Chosen One - purple)
[personal profile] red_satin_doll

And also, to remind everyone to vote in the [livejournal.com profile] otherworldlyric icon challenge contest #162.
ETA: [livejournal.com profile] dragonydreams just let me know that voting is closed and winners have been announced. Congratulations to winners [livejournal.com profile] spikesredqueen and [livejournal.com profile] chic_c !
(While I'm here I might as well send more kudos to [livejournal.com profile] wickedbish for being such an awesome icon beta.)




Now go get some sleep - tomorrow's a long day, sweetie.

Date: 2014-02-18 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetwhip.livejournal.com
I voted in that challenge. Now that it's over, which ones were yours?


Gabrielle

Date: 2014-02-18 02:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
4, 11 and 12

(ETA: I'll post the entire "collection" of icons I made for this sometime this week)

I did vote today myself and at least one of my picks - #1 - was a winner.
Edited Date: 2014-02-18 02:53 am (UTC)

Date: 2014-02-18 02:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] velvetwhip.livejournal.com
Can't wait to see them! You made super icons!


Gabrielle

Date: 2014-02-18 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Thanks hon! *works on it*

Date: 2014-02-18 12:22 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
I voted you without knowing and I voted one of the winner. Lovely icons, very funny. XD

Date: 2014-02-18 04:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Well clearly you have very good taste and an excellent eye! *LOL*

By "funny" I assume you mean the picture in this post and not the icons in the challenge? Because if they came across as funny, maybe I did something wrong.

Date: 2014-02-18 06:55 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
The icons of the challenge are also funny. I mean, there are some funny icons, like the funny Willow icon or the Spike one (There are also not-funny icons like the one with Angelus and the Buffy VS EvilWillow one) But, I have to be honest, the Nikki one kinda makes me giggle. It's inappropriate, I know, but the phrase about the king sounds funny to me. I'm the worst!

Date: 2014-02-18 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I started with a bunch of S6 icons then made the one of Buffy in PG, then Nikki (I also made some of Xin Rong); making those was the first time I've done an icon/visual art project in a fandom that almost made me cry.

I was thinking about how cold and lonely, how terrifying, Buffy's death in PG is - but Nikki's and Xin Rong's are no less so, and by extension the thousands of girls we never see, girls who have been drafted into a war they never sought, who know they die young, but fight anyway.

It's upsetting and it should be. If I'm able to cry over Buffy's death but ignore Nikki or Xin Rong's, then there is something very wrong with that.

The phrase "who died and made you king" has a several layers of meaning in that context: a girl dies so that a vampire earns bragging rights, a feather in their cap; one girl dies and another one, a stranger, will be called. A girl dies, alone and unknown, in a fruitless struggle to keep the rest of us safe while we sleep in innocently in our beds.

I almost used the words "Who died?" by itself.

Date: 2014-02-18 11:02 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
The line sounds funny to me because I associate it with comedy stuff (I learned that phrase with comedy. I thought is a "joke line") but I didn't thought about the - oh my God, so spot on - implications.

The slayers' succession is something creepy and when I read people who bash Buffy because of what she did in Chosen I really can't believe my eyes: she broke the chain that brought so much death on so many people. Also it's really unfair and it's very convenient, if you think about it, for the Council: without the previous slayer there's not example nor guide. There's no previous experience. Every slayer is like an only child without mother and has to rebuilt her power starting with nothing. They could easily use the new orphan slayer, because no one will protect her.

I'm upset by Buffy and Xin Rong (Is that her name? I didn't know it!) death. Well, I'm upset for Buffy for reasons you can imagine. Nikki's death upsets me on a totally different level mostly because there's Robin involved and all the hate he gets from her death, for his own self, for his mother and the vampire who killed her. It's really seems SO unfair.

Date: 2014-02-19 12:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I know that line can be used sarcastically/comedically - in the song itself it has a bitter quality - so I never quite thought of that. Once I paired it with the images. (the irony is that if the word were "queen" instead it would have very different meanings.)

when I read people who bash Buffy because of what she did in Chosen I really can't believe my eyes: she broke the chain that brought so much death on so many people.

I've been thinking about the slayer spell recently and come to terms with it personally. Because I can see both sides of the issue - I felt both sides when I watched the episode for the first time; there are definitely some creepy implications, thanks mostly to Get it Done. Once we're told that the original Slayer was "raped" by a demon, it's hard to unsee that. OTOH - as far as I can tell, Buffy and co thought that all the surviving potentials were there in the living room with them.

But the thing is - even with the problemmatic aspects, undoing the spell entirely doesn't seem like the solution to me and doesn't sit well with me, when I see it in the comics or in fanfic. So you're going to take away what was given? That "takeaway" is also a "violation". Plus in terms of power dynamics, why is it "bad" that a bunch of young women gain power? Why is it assumed that they can't handle it, or that it will shift the dynamics of the entire universe in a bad way and thus should be avoided? Because - only the boys can handle it? That's not good enough for me.

It seems to me that what's needed is communication, getting the word out, letting the girls know that they're not freaks, not alone -which is exactly the situation I faced growing up, not feeling "normal", not caring about boys, but having never heard the words "lesbian" "gay" "homosexual" except as a slur on the playground, as something shameful and sinful. I didn't come out until I was in my mid-twenties which makes me luckier than a lot of other people have been. That sort of shame and ignorance and silence are a fucking waste of time, a waste of life and possibility.

So I guess I see it like my sexual orientation - I wouldn't wish that stupid struggle with a most basic part of my own being upon anybody.

[livejournal.com profile] ozma914 writes a post-Chosen Four Friends series and in one, his OC Slayer, Kara, reflects on how she is glad to have been "chosen" and to chose, to have a chance to make a real difference in life, to have these friends and sense of community. And I like that way of looking at it because it makes a lot of sense to me. (I can't find the exact link here's the four friends tag http://ozma914.livejournal.com/tag/four%20friends) OTOH he also wrote "She would be 13" a beautiful story in which Xander reflects on the downsides of the slayer spell to the girls it affects http://good--evil.livejournal.com/176650.html So, everything in balance.

Date: 2014-02-19 12:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Also it's really unfair and it's very convenient, if you think about it, for the Council: without the previous slayer there's not example nor guide. There's no previous experience. Every slayer is like an only child without mother and has to rebuilt her power starting with nothing. They could easily use the new orphan slayer, because no one will protect her.

Exactly - they practice total control. They "own" the story, until Buffy rewrites it. We hear about Watchers Diaries, what about Slayer Diaries? in Prophecy Girl, Joyce represents "possibilities", telling Buffy a story about how she met Hank at the prom and emphasizing choice, possibility and options; Giles says "Buffy WILL meet the Master and she WILL die." In the Gift he says "Dawn MUST die." He's the WC's rep, and there is only ONE option, one way to do things. And most Slayers live and die by that belief.

And this reflects a truth about real life - much of women's history has been erased, forgotten, buried, or is inaccessible to most of us. Buffy doesn't have access to her own history except through Giles/the WC and Spike - a Slayer of Slayers who doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. He doesn't understand when Xin Rong says "Tell my mother - I am sorry." He doesn't KNOW she had that bond, nor would he care in any case. She's an enemy to be defeated. So FFL actually makes clear that Spike isn't the final word on what Slayers are like, but somehow it ends up being interpreted that way, especially when LMPTM doesn't contradict his opinions. It's not exactly a battle of equals - equal strength perhaps, and yes the girls have training but nothing to compare with a vampire's 100+ years of skill and experience. In WTTH, Luke and the Master want to kill Buffy, they seek out "the Slayer"; she just wants to go to school and hang with her friends and date boys.

It's troubling - or it should be troubling, that the girls themselves are all but forgotten while the men have a pissing contest; that Robin's legitimate grievances are brushed aside; that Buffy is still removed from her own history...and don't even get me started on the awful image of Robin beaten and bloodied, looking like 14 year old Emmet Till in his coffin, or so many black Americans who were brutally murdered in America.
It's really seems SO unfair.

Maybe they were going for "Spike hasn't totally learned empathy yet" but that's the last word on it in the series, so it just comes across as yucky. The perpetrator justifying himself, with the backing of the (white) Slayer who loves him against the "angry black man" who needs to get over himself apparently? Oh Season 7, you make it so hard for me to defend you sometimes.

Date: 2014-02-19 10:41 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
Eh. I have mixed opinions about LMPTM. Very mixed opinions.
I will never get Spike's final words to Robin, they seem so cruel but also false. I mean, how can he say that Nikki didn't love Robin as much as Anne loved him? WTF? Just because Nikki had also a mission while Anne was all ill and isolated with his son? How the fuck the writers suppose that a pareting model is better than another ESPECIALLY when both mothers didn't really had options? (Anne was ill and Nikki was the Chosen One, she didn't choose that destiny)
I don't know what the writers were aiming with that, really. And I'm also certain that if Nikki was a man she would have been justified (I don't know what I'm doing with the verbes here, I hope it makes sense) It's far more acceptable, for a father, to have a mission or an important job or whatever, but for a mother her entire world should be the son?

I kinda want to know the fandom opinion about this stuff, because it bugs me.

Date: 2014-02-19 10:31 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
I know that line can be used sarcastically/comedically - in the song itself it has a bitter quality - so I never quite thought of that. Once I paired it with the images. (the irony is that if the word were "queen" instead it would have very different meanings.)

Yes, it was just my brain, because I associate the phrase with something funny. I think that all the Slayers deaths are equally dramatic. Of course Buffy would be the most dramatic but just because she's the protagonist and we actually see her struggling with death. Is it possible to say "who died and made you queen" also?

I assume that when you talk about the "taking away" of the power you imply the comics. That doesn't make a lot of sense. It feels like it comes out of nowhere this "unbalacing" stuff caused by the spell. And all the Twilight/Angel's motivations are weird and nonsensical. The basic idea, "everything you do has consequences", is interesting and true. It's also true that having suddenly all the potentials active change the world, of course. But the development lacks sense. And, yes, Get It Done shows the creepy implications and they still mix with Buffy's intentions but I get a sense of reality from that, because things aren't all black or white and power dynamics between men are complex. Still, I do believe that empowering the women, the slayers, was the solution and I'm sad that the comics take it away.

Thanks for the recs. I will read the stories.

Date: 2014-02-19 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Is it possible to say "who died and made you queen" also?

The challenge was to use at LEAST two consecutive words in the song's lyrics, so I suppose I could have changed that one word with no harm; but that didn't occur to me at the time. I could try redoing one with the word queen in it? When I post the entire set on here (today?) let me know.

It may not come out exactly the same - that's the thing I add text while the image is large and then shrink it down (with PB it doesn't seem to work the other way and still be legible) so no two icons come out the same from the same image. But I do love playing with text and making icons so I'd be up for that!

I assume that when you talk about the "taking away" of the power you imply the comics.

I've read it in fanfiction as well, all of which have been far better written and better developed than the comics but the solution still never quite works for me no matter how elegantly or skillfully it's presented.

Date: 2014-02-19 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
Gah, I like the word "queen" because of etymology. I chose it for my long-Buffycentric fic. The phrase really assumes other meanings changing king with queen. I think it's because of the hystorical values of these words.

I've read it in fanfiction as well, all of which have been far better written and better developed than the comics but the solution still never quite works for me no matter how elegantly or skillfully it's presented.

For me too the spell is an endgame. I think it's the best possible solution in that situation and I don't see why taking away the power from the girls after. Everytime Buffy makes the "Chosen" speech I could cry ugly empowered tears. It refers to all of us, I think, to take the power in our hands and be brave. It's really inspiring.

Date: 2014-02-19 11:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I was thinking about your fic when we were talking earlier - your use of the word queen inspired it in one of my posts in reference to Buffy a while back, a "benevolent queen". http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/17902.html Which is how I see her by the end of the series - as a matriarch.

Everytime Buffy makes the "Chosen" speech I could cry ugly empowered tears. It refers to all of us, I think, to take the power in our hands and be brave. It's really inspiring.

It's one of those things I'm split both ways about (and this show is really good at doing that) - my head analyses it and says "But..."; my heart just melts a little. Especially when I see the girl in the trailer park rise up - WHY don't more fanvids include her rather than the softball girl? Or when Vi kicks ass in the Hellmouth - I get SHIVERS every time.

Would it have been even better if Dawn's Keyness had also been unlocked? Oh yeah. That's a massive fail - but not enough to make me want to reject the whole thing entirely.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] kikimay - Date: 2014-02-19 11:53 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-20 02:27 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] kikimay - Date: 2014-02-20 12:25 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-20 11:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] kikimay - Date: 2014-02-21 12:44 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2014-02-20 07:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com
Kara did have one big advantage over the other new slayers: Her father, a former teacher, not only supported her once he found out, but actually came along with her and became a teacher for all the young slayers. But I think that sense of community is a big factor in why the slayers in my universe are relatively happy with their lot -- there's something to be said for being in a group, rather than a lone warrior with the odd always stacked against you.

Overall, I suspect some of the new slayers are better off than they were before, and some worse off ... which doesn't take away the question of whether the spell should have been cast against their will, of course.

Date: 2014-02-20 11:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
But I think that sense of community is a big factor in why the slayers in my universe are relatively happy with their lot -- there's something to be said for being in a group, rather than a lone warrior with the odd always stacked against you.

Which was the point I think the entire series was trying to get at. You have one girl (then two) who are under the thumb of an institution that has remained frozen in the way it operates for who knows how long. Information is doled out according to the needs of the Institution - which includes controlling the girls. And I think the point of the lone girl, the lone warrior, is something that can't be emphasized enough - compared to Riley in the Initiative, who is one of many soldiers and can count on back-up, on supplies, on a good paycheck (and if my brother's experience is any indication, health bennies, housing etc.)

I think post-series Buffy and Faith would have a lot of ideas of how the new organization should be run, with an eye to the well-being of the girls, and a team of watchers and support staff so no girl is alone, and no one watcher has the entire burden on their shoulders either. The other fic series I like in this regard is The Girls in Question series by the wife/wife team TigerDragon (Fuffy shippers). Dawn is a Watcher for instance and it's a very different dynamic to that of a young girl and a much older man. It's also just a damn good read and a real adventure story (and wonderful OC's.)
http://archiveofourown.org/series/14394

(I haven't read the sections that happen "in canon" yet, I started post-Chosen: "Mornings After" but then "Reentry" is where we first see the workings of the organization itself; then "Investigations" and "Women, Fire and Other Dangerous Things".)

which doesn't take away the question of whether the spell should have been cast against their will, of course.

It does take away the problem of being hunted down and killed like dogs in the street without a way to fight back until the First has killed off every Potential, which was supposedly the plan in-canon. (I'm not saying the plan made any sense, mind.)

So yeah, I can definitely see both sides of the issue because it's complicated, and I think there are legitimate arguements to me made on both sides.

Rather than just say "oopsie" and dump the whole thing as the comics do (so we can, what, rehash the same story arc Buffy already took?), I'm more interested in the notion of actually dealing with the consequences and outcome of having power, individually and collectively, in a new way and having to learn how to use it.

Date: 2014-02-21 07:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com
Honestly, I gave up on the comics at the end of Season 8. My own fanfic canon doesn't count them, mostly because I started up my universe long before they came out.

My slayer organization is run by a Council that's half slayers and half watchers, and mostly Scoobies at the moment. Some of my watchers include Giles, Xander, Dawn, the Buffybot, and ghost Tara -- long story! Between them and the leadership of Buffy and Faith, it's safe to say the slayers will be more protected and more in the loop. I had plans to bring other canon characters in to help with the organization -- Clem the cook, for instance -- if I ever get a chance to write more stories.

Date: 2014-02-22 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Clem the cook? THIS MUST HAPPEN!

OMG, I started visualizing Clem in this role and - I don't think he has to wear a hairnet but long sleeves, definitely (or maybe he would wear a hairnet - to keep the ears back?)

And then I started visualizing Bottie peppering him with questions and comments like the ultra-rational super-cheerful five year child that she pretty much is *hugs Bottie tight* and Clem just rolling with it all in his laid-back way and I just DIED laughing. THIS FIC MUST BE WRITTEN.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-23 03:18 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-23 07:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-24 08:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-24 04:53 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-25 07:23 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-26 12:32 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-27 03:55 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-27 04:22 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-28 06:04 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-02-28 06:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] ozma914.livejournal.com - Date: 2014-03-01 07:16 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2014-02-20 01:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com
If I'm able to cry over Buffy's death but ignore Nikki or Xin Rong's, then there is something very wrong with that.

Excellent, excellent comment.

Date: 2014-02-20 02:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I know the "Origins" vid is on your best-of list; have you read [livejournal.com profile] eleusis_walks meta "Someone Must Speak for Her"? I can't find links lately by [livejournal.com profile] endeni kindly send his meta to me as documents, which I'll gladly share.

Date: 2014-02-20 03:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com
I may have read that one circa 2011, but I'd love to check it out anyway. Even though my antipathy towards Angel has put me at odds with e_w.

Date: 2014-02-20 08:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Hmm, he seems to be at odds with a lot of people on my f'list! I've never interacted with him so I don't know the controversies. I'll email you the meta.

Even though my antipathy towards Angel

The character, the series or both?

Date: 2014-02-20 11:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eilowyn.livejournal.com
Mostly character, slightly series because of said character. Can we just watch the Wes, Cordy and Gunn Show please?

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags

Profile

red_satin_doll: (Default)
red_satin_doll

June 2021

S M T W T F S
  12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20 212223242526
27282930   

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Page generated Jul. 8th, 2025 10:50 am
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios