Or what's a beta for? And, is there a beta in your meta?

[red_satin_doll]

ETA 08/02/13: comlodge just re-stated the point in the convo thread below that I was attempting to make re: beta-readers and meta and did so better and far more concisely than I could ever hope to. I bow to her awesomeness.

I just noticed one more empty "pending" slot in the Beta catagory at the Running With Scissors Awards,  which seems odd to me. Thousands of fandom writers (theoretically) = thousands of betas (theoretically) = unable to fill six slots? Granted a good beta is hard to find - or rather, a successful author-beta partnership based on complete trust and respect for the other person may just be harder to find than a good marriage. The author needs to be able to choose someone who can offer objective, constructive criticism, not flames or insults; who can judge the work based upon what the writer is trying to achieve in the piece and how much it fails or succeeds in that goal; and the beta needs to be someone who can offer  help but then detach themselves and always remember it is the author's story, not their own.

On the other side of the page, nothing is more frustrating as a beta (I speak from experience, of course) than dealing with an author who says they want feedback when what they really want is praise. And this is true of 99% percent of the writers I've dealt with, who say they want "feedback" when what they're really after is ego strokes. Of course every writer wants that, but when an author is entering a relationship with a beta partner they need to be clear as to what, exactly they are looking for: an editor? A cheerleader? A teacher or taskmaster? Someone to brainstorm with? Line by line analysis of plot, structure, etc? Hugs and puppies? I'm not a beta for any writers in this fandom currently but I'm a "Muse" for one of my closest friend's novels (we prefer the title "Muse" to "beta"), and I've always been more than willing to give the writers I've working with the feedback they need, if they are willing to listen to what I have to say. (Why ask a beta for their opinion if you don't want to actually hear it?)

One thing I noticed since I've been a part of this fandom: betas are considered essential to fanfiction, to the point that authors actually apologize for not having a beta; why is it then that "meta" (nonfiction writing) posts very rarely mention the feedback of a beta? The exceptions I've seen have tended to be the more intellectual or academic fan essays and analysis. The other day I asked someone to beta a fanfic I'm working on but it's never occured to me to request feedback on a nonfiction fan essay before posting it.  Is it custom? Habit? Lack of interest in nonfiction writing in relation to fiction?

(ETA paragraph breaks, hyperlinks, and screencap. Clearly, this post needed a beta of it's own.)

Comments

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

I had a friend whose work I'd read and I'd ask every once in a while "How did this character get from point A to point B?"

Oh yes, I would do that too. Sometimes I would say "how is that character suddenly sitting down? Last time I pictured him he was standing on the other side of the room" LOL But truly, it was a gift to take part in her creative process. I've written a couple of things before and I was pleased with them, but she was the real deal.

So the thing about meta. Hmmmmm. I will try to explain my feeling about it. Please don't think it is about you at all. This is just something I feel in general and it comes from my experience on LJ over the years.

The simple answer is yes, I dislike all nonfiction writing about btvs. That's not completely true, of course. But when I hear the term meta, I envision someone who has an opinion about the motivation of a character or the meaning of an episode, and they write a post to explain their opinion and make their case. Then people on their flist join in the discussion. So what's so bad about that? Well, nothing really. And my hat is off to everyone who posts meta and participates, as long as it stays respectful, because that is a really important part of the fandom. But there are few reasons it’s not my cup of tea.

First of all, I do like to get into a discussion about the show and the characters on occasion. But when it gets too analytical, I don't want to experience btvs on that level. It's not an academic endeavor for me. It's an emotional, gut level experience. Maybe it's because I'm not really a writer, but I am more of a visual artist. Too much talkie no good. But that's just my thing, it's not a statement about the value of meta.

Also, I have seen some of these posts turn into serious unpleasantness. I've been on LJ in the Buffy fandom off and on for about 7 years, and I've seen some truly awful fandom free-for-all's that have started off with someone posting their big fucking opinion. It's pretty tame around here these days, but sometimes I click on a link from su_herald under the heading "fandom discussion", and I end up being sorry.

And as far as meta being beta’ed… it just seems like it should come directly from the writer without intervention. It should be, as you say, a stream of consciousness from the writer, not a collaborative creation. But again, this is just how I see things. The great thing about being involved in the fandom is appreciating the show with so many different people who are approaching it from different angles.

Edited, Ignore earlier version of this reply, please.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

ETA: I just hit the reply button and THEN I read comlodge's reply down thread and she's stated the heart of my argument re: meta but more succinctly and a lot better than I could. http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/20858.html?thread=466298#t466298 *bows to comlodge*

BTW - I hope I didn't offend you! You certainly didn't offend me at all & I apologize if my words came across as a bit brusque. Words on the flat screen (or page) don't always capture tone or intent. in I mentioning my own stuff, it's meant as example only. Anyhoodle...I have NO idea why I had to unscreen this to reply btw; I didn't the last time, I haven't changed my settings and I just commented on one of your posts successfully. Weird.

Sometimes I would say "how is that character suddenly sitting down? Last time I pictured him he was standing on the other side of the room"

I've had those moments. Currently I am a (sometime) Muse to my best friend and it's been less about "how did they get to point A to B?" more brainstorming on themes, plot, characterization, which is a lot of fun. If I really don't feel I can offer advice because she's written something that I can't connect with for whatever reason, she's got other people she can rely on.

I've written a couple of things before and I was pleased with them, but she was the real deal.

Know that feeling all TOO well.

And thank you for laying our your argument/opinion to me; it makes sense to me where I didn't understand before. I can respect that - not your thing. I guess it's the same idea as when I come across fics that contain ideas or tropes that don't appeal to me.? The back button IS MY FRIEND.

someone who has an opinion about the motivation of a character or the meaning of an episode

I think fiction does the same thing in a somewhat different way. Nonfiction is more "this is what I see"; fiction is more "this is what I would have liked to have seen" but that's not true in all cases.

It's not an academic endeavor for me. It's an emotional, gut level experience.

For me ithe emotional level definitely came first. And there are plenty of intellectual essays that go over my head in terms of academic language and I really can't participate. I'm not their audience in those cases. (So I tell myself, to keep my "I should be at that level" feeling of failure from taking over. *lol*) The funny thing is, some of the most intellectual/academic fandom writing to be just as emotional as any other; sometimes the author is clear about their feelings but other times the language serves as a mask, pretending to be objective. We're all fans at heart.

some truly awful fandom free-for-all's

Definitely so. people forget to be civil and respectful sometimes. Again, the back button and "agree to disagree" both come in very handy in such cases. I've slipped up a couple of times and gotten embroiled in heated arguments or said things I regretted later, almost always because emotions took over from sense. Or I've been on the receiving end of someone else's emotional issues (not fun). My Rule #1 - don't reply when I'm tired, angry, depressed, sick, in pain, etc. Rule #2 - I'm not obligated to reply esp if on hot-button issues. I have friends in this fandom I adore and we disagree on what I consider some fundamental issues and I have to ask myself, What's the point of going there? If I'm worried things will get heated and/or I know we're not going to change each other's minds, I try not to go there. I do slip up.

It should be, as you say, a stream of consciousness from the writer

Again, comlodge just said it better than I can. I'll try a better example (hopefully?) of what I mean: lostboy_lj's post "The Monomythology of Buffy" is fanart as meta. He edited it from his original version because of a point that bone_dry1013 made in the convo thread. It wasn't about changing his premise but a single detail that made that premise clearer. If Lostboy had Bonedry look at the post beforehand, might he have saved himself the trouble later? Possibly.

Re: Edited, Ignore earlier version of this reply, please.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

comlodge has an amazing way with words, doesn't she?

BTW - I hope I didn't offend you! You certainly didn't offend me at all & I apologize if my words came across as a bit brusque.

Gosh, I'm trying to find where you might have said something offensive, and I can't find it. Funny though, I wrote my last response late at night, and then I wondered if I had said anything offensive. LOL. Well at least we care. I don't know you very well, but I've seen your comments around LJ, and I get that you are very passionate about the show. And I think that's wonderful. A passionate viewpoint would NEVER offend me.

I've slipped up a couple of times and gotten embroiled in heated arguments or said things I regretted later, almost always because emotions took over from sense.

Oh yeah, I've learned that lesson so many times, it should be tattooed on my forehead by now. And I think that is at the heart of at least part of my reluctance to get involved in "fandom discussions". When I first got on LJ, I thought it was going to be lots and lots of fun and we would all hold hands and talk about how much we loved the show. But there was so much more to it, both good and bad. The good part was incredibly joyful and almost the most fun possible. But I think I'm still a little traumatized by some of the bad stuff that happened. When I came back on LJ this time, I promised myself I was just going to work on my Photoshop skills, enjoy worshiping Spike and basically stay out of trouble. I really don't get too wound up about anything anymore. The only thing that really gets to me is when people post to make fun of what they see as others’ writing mistakes. Especially when they try to post as though they're adding something informative or helpful. And then the rest of the herd joins in, because you know, you don't want to be on the outside. When I click on something like that from su_herald I'm just always so astounded. The funny thing is, it's usually from a writer. I find it depressing. So I stay in my little bubble and make pretty pictures.

So now I've shared my deep thoughts with you, and you don't even know who I am. That's one of the things I love about LJ! :) If you don't mind, I will friend you. As I said, I don't respond to meta too much, but I'm sure on occasion there will be a post that peaks my interest, and I will feel compelled to add my $.02.

Re: Edited, Ignore earlier version of this reply, please.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Gosh, I'm trying to find where you might have said something offensive, and I can't find it. Funny though, I wrote my last response late at night, and then I wondered if I had said anything offensive.

Honestly that seems to be my M.O. esp when I don't know someone well. I say something and THEN worry I said the wrong thing or read too much into what they say. And most of the time that's not the case at all. After years online I still have a problem with sussing out "tone". I love the internet and the people I get to talk to but I also miss the face-to-face interaction.

So no worries *hugs*

I get that you are very passionate about the show. And I think that's wonderful. A passionate viewpoint would NEVER offend me.

I accept the compliment and thank you for it! (I would have said "stubborn, opinionated and occasionally tactless" but I like your version much better!)

When I first got on LJ, I thought it was going to be lots and lots of fun and we would all hold hands and talk about how much we loved the show. But there was so much more to it, both good and bad. The good part was incredibly joyful and almost the most fun possible. But I think I'm still a little traumatized by some of the bad stuff that happened.

*nods* I've experienced much the same on both ends, definitely. And screwed up royally myself.

Getting into conversation or not depends on a lot of factors. I do really enjoy conversations analyzing BUT certain conditions that tend to be in place: there are other people who I at least partially agree with and/or am probably already comfortable with (I'm learning - hah - that if everyone thinks in one way and I totally disagree - back the hell off, because I'm not going to change anyone's opinions and will probably only offend someone), the language isn't over my head or already taking an unpleasant turn. Civilized exchange is good; arguing for it's own sake is not. I don't like being patronized, talked down to or having my entire opinion dismissed out of hand.

When I first got on LJ, I thought it was going to be lots and lots of fun and we would all hold hands and talk about how much we loved the show. But there was so much more to it, both good and bad. The good part was incredibly joyful and almost the most fun possible. But I think I'm still a little traumatized by some of the bad stuff that happened.

Oh same here - see comments above.

I really think more people could stand to use the term "agree to disagree" when things get heated. In my experience it really helps folks step back, laugh a little, and let go of the need to "be right".

I find it depressing. So I stay in my little bubble and make pretty pictures.

And that's just fine - if you're not having fun what's the point? I used to be the moderator of a forum in a completely different fandom and the administrator, a friend of mine, said that over and over - there was no point sticking around if it wasn't fun because it was FANDOM. It was supposed to be fun. But then again the forum was invitation only, so people mostly knew one another and we mods watched the board and were willing to put out flare-ups, which rarely happened. And we used "agree to disagree" a lot.

And pretty pictures? DEFINITELY a legit expression of creativity and fannishness, as much as meta or fiction. In fact I think fanart doesn't get the kudos it deserves.

As I said, I don't respond to meta too much, but I'm sure on occasion there will be a post that peaks my interest, and I will feel compelled to add my $.02.

Please do and I hope I post some things you enjoy now and again! Infinitewhale expressed a desire to see more "fun and shallow" fandom posts, but those sorts of things may be found more readily on tumblr nowadays? I'll definitely try to post some fun things but we'll see how well I do with that.