Everybody Loves Links

[red_satin_doll]

ETA: MORE PRETTY PICTURES!  I'm incorrigible. Sue me.

*** infinitewhale has posted a short but provocative meta about Buffy's dream in "Dead Things" and her own self-identification within the dream, briefly touching on the late-season Buffy & Willow parallels, and how Tara protects both women in OAFA. Hits my (bitter)sweet spot on about nine different levels. He was worried no one would want to read it, or that he couldn't write about the subject properly as a man. To which I say - nonsense, on both counts. If this fandom has reminded me of anything, it's that our shared humanity trumps gender differences unless we allow those differences to stand in our way.  Also, meta like his allows me to talk about subjects of great interest to me, while still preserving my commitment to focus on the ladies here on my journal. (I'm sneaky that way.) ETA: rebcake informed me this meta is f'locked. Oops. Sorry. Ask nicely to friend him and don't please embarrass me, kids (because I can manage that on my own just fine, thank you.)

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*** fray_adjacent12 was inspired by recent conversations between myself and kikimay re: the Summers sisters and the women of the 'verse, to create a new set of female-centric icons, including the scene from "Family" that I've grabbed, lots of lovely Tara-centric icons, Dawn, Faith, Buffy in S7. kikimay confessed that the phrase "not in blood but in bond" comes from Thor/Loki movie fandom. a track by composer Hans Zimmerman for the Sherlock Holmes movie soundtrack. (Ugh) Too late, kiddo, it belongs to OUR fandom now. The Buffyverse's chosen families rule everything.

Off-topic but I feel like saying it anyway: Amber is such a gorgeous woman, isn't she? Every time I watch her in the show I think it's too bad no one in the costume department knew what to do with the body of a goddess, damn it.  (There, I said it.)

Fray has also posted her very first poll (yay!) in the service of Buffyverse evangelism: "If you were trying to introduce someone to BtVS and only had 2-3 episodes to show them, what would you choose?" Personally, I went with option #1 - start with WTTH and proceed chronologically. Not that I'd try to influence your answer or anything.

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*** Speaking of Tara, polls, and OAFA (yes, I did; weren't you paying attention?) mcjulie posted her OAFA episode poll.  Two things to keep in mind: Tara, in all her gentle AND badass glory, and...Clem! Everybody in fandom loves Clem! Love the comics, hate the comics, early-seasons fan, late-seasons lover, what-have-you: he's the one thing in the 'verse that we can all happily agree upon. World peace is at hand. You're welcome.

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*** eilowyn is wondering if anyone would be interested in a meta she's working on re: Buffy and trauma. I say HELL YES - but that's just me. The post is f'locked btw but if you're not friends with her ask nicely, because she's worth getting to know.

Comments

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's any character who is universally loved. No matter who they are, there must be someone out there who hates them. Not that I hate Clem--I'm just cold about him. Although I did always wonder what happened to him after S6, and once had a fic idea where he met Spike in early S7, and Spike found out about Buffy bringing Dawn to Spike's cave after the attempted rape (I always wondered if Spike ever know about it).

As for who I love: The obvious: Buffy, Faith, Spike. I love Warren, too, but not in a very loving kind of way. I love most of the main characters, some more than others. More obscure characters: I developed a bizarre soft spot for Harmony, although she also annoys me a lot.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's any character who is universally loved. No matter who they are, there must be someone out there who hates them.

Very true (and you can tell I was being satirical anyway.Or trying to.)

Although I did always wonder what happened to him after S6,

You mean the time between Villians (or TTG?) and Potential, and once more in EP? You're right, we don't see him again do we? That's an interesting concept.

Basically he's a plot device anyway, showing that 1) Buffy's different worlds fit together very awkwardly if at all, and "normal" for a Slayer looks a lot different than everybody else's, and 2) another shade of grey away from the black/white. humans/demons divide that the WC has drummed into Slayers' heads. (ie, Kendra)

I honestly would have been very happy with more Clem and less - oh, say, Andrew in S7. But he drives me up a wall anyway.

(I always wondered if Spike ever know about it).

That never occurred to me - although I must have read it in a fic somewhere. (Would it have registered even if he did know?) His relationship with Dawn was secondary to his relationship to Buffy anyway IMO contrary to the countless volumes of fics to the contrary.

I love Warren, too, but not in a very loving kind of way.

Huh. Now I'm curious why - but I should probably reread your meta on Warren and Willow shouldn't I?

I remember disliking Warren right off the bat in IWMTLY - not even so much for the creepiness of building a robot girlfriend, but I think a sort of visceral displeasure at having to look at or listen to the character, his face, voice etc. (I was kind of like that with Charisma Carpenter at first, to be honest.) I think it's a reaction to actor+character that's hard to parse out which is which. And if the performance is really good, that's part of the point - the difference between inhabiting a role and wearing it on the surface like a costume. So I think in hindsight I appreciate the character and the actor a lot more than I first did.

TKIM actually had a lot to do with that I think; Adam's performance in it just about broke me when Warren is on his knees crying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry come back!" One of the best performances of pure emotional anguish I've ever seen. The show loves redemption arcs, but what happens when redemption isn't possible, when there's no way to fix the damage you've done?

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Very true (and you can tell I was being satirical anyway.Or trying to.)

But if we just found the one fictional character that everyone loved, it would solve all our problems.

You mean the time between Villians (or TTG?) and Potential, and once more in EP? You're right, we don't see him again do we? That's an interesting concept.

Yes, I meant that, although I may also have forgotten his two appearances in S7.

Basically he's a plot device anyway, showing that 1) Buffy's different worlds fit together very awkwardly if at all, and "normal" for a Slayer looks a lot different than everybody else's, and 2) another shade of grey away from the black/white. humans/demons divide that the WC has drummed into Slayers' heads. (ie, Kendra)

That's probably true. And he shows a good side of Spike. In some ways, I think Spike's interactions with the demon world in S6 are a stronger argument for his goodness than his interactions with the human world (i.e. the Scoobies).

I honestly would have been very happy with more Clem and less - oh, say, Andrew in S7. But he drives me up a wall anyway.

I like Andrew and am glad with what we got from him, but, like Harmony, he is annoying, so I get the feeling.

Now I'm curious why - but I should probably reread your meta on Warren and Willow shouldn't I?

I'm not sure if I get into it in that meta, except to say that the way he parallels everyone on the show is cool. I have a hard time putting into words why I love Warren. Just the little things, like in Dead Things the way he checks out Andrew and Jonathan to see what their reactions are to getting away with murder. The way he is simultaneous one of the most human villains (even more human than the Mayor and Faith, because for me, he feels like someone you would actually know) and one of the most irredeemable.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

But if we just found the one fictional character that everyone loved, it would solve all our problems.

Exactly! ;) But then again people have thought that if everyone believed in the "one true God" it would solve everything and look where that's gotten us.

I may also have forgotten his two appearances in S7.

That's easy to do, they're so brief - but in both instances he's interacting with Buffy, not Spike; so his purpose has shifted from that of Spike's confidant, to the symbol of Buffy's changed attitude/relationship with demons.

In some ways, I think Spike's interactions with the demon world in S6 are a stronger argument for his goodness than his interactions with the human world (i.e. the Scoobies).

Oh that's a interpretation I haven't heard before! Interesting. (it's certainly true that he can hurt other demons if he choses to but doesn't have the same choice with humans except Buffy until S7. Huh.) I'd be interested if you ever developed that further in a meta-post. *bats eyelashes*

but, like Harmony, he is annoying,

To be fair, I can actually deal with him better in S6 as part of the Trio; I guess because his role is smaller and he has the other two to play off of? Also, he's still a comic figure but also a very dark one - he thinks it's cool that they got away with murder in S6, unlike Jonathan. And Tom Lenk's final scene in Storyteller, before he turns off the camera? Fantastic. OTOH, having that entire episode built around him when the rest of the main cast goes wanting feels like a fanboy choice on the part of the writers. (That's the only way I can interpret the fact that he's continued to have a significant supporting role in the comics - and gets away with some very skeevy stuff. "We like this character! You should too!")

I actually enjoy Harmony a hell of a lot more. rahirah said that she has a "sad affection" for her, and I guess I do too? She actually endures a lot of shit when you look at it, and she's so funny, when she could have remained the one-dimensional bitch from the early seasons.

The way he is simultaneous one of the most human villains (even more human than the Mayor and Faith, because for me, he feels like someone you would actually know) and one of the most irredeemable.

ever_neutral made the same point in her S7 meta, and I think that's the point where I started to take another look at the character.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested if you ever developed that further in a meta-post.

I'm not sure if I have enough to develop into a meta post, but maybe at some point. It's mostly based off of the idea that Spike could hurt demons like Clem, and would have in the past (See: his reaction to demonized Giles in A New Man), but chooses not to. And this, not killing demons like Clem, isn't something that Buffy cares about--at least, not the same way she cares about dead humans--so he's probably not refraining from killing demons to please her. Also, he pays his gambling debts :)

She actually endures a lot of shit when you look at it, and she's so funny, when she could have remained the one-dimensional bitch from the early seasons.

She's also the only vampire on either show who tries to do good without a soul, chip, or romantic obsession. Go Harmony!

ever_neutral made the same point in her S7 meta, and I think that's the point where I started to take another look at the character.

Do you happen to have a link to that meta? I maybe have read it, but I'm not sure.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

And this, not killing demons like Clem, isn't something that Buffy cares about--at least, not the same way she cares about dead humans--so he's probably not refraining from killing demons to please her.

Interesting. of course he's still in a weird sort of limbo - he can't cut all his ties to the demon world because it is his world still. But if that's true, it's an interesting parallel (I'm making this up as I go along) the to acts of service Buffy performs on his behalf without his knowledge.

She's also the only vampire on either show who tries to do good without a soul, chip, or romantic obsession. Go Harmony!

Right? Why isn't there more Harmony-appreciation in fandom? Is it because she's a girl? Because she's comic relief? (Her scenes in S4 where Spike mistreated her actually had me teary for her.)

Do you happen to have a link to that meta? I maybe have read it, but I'm not sure.

Here it is, sorry!

http://ever-neutral.livejournal.com/14562.html

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

of course he's still in a weird sort of limbo - he can't cut all his ties to the demon world because it is his world still.

That's true. And it's interesting that of all the demons who could have connected with, it's the relatively harmless Clem he becomes friends with.

Why isn't there more Harmony-appreciation in fandom?

Maybe because she's annoying? Maybe because she makes Spike look bad (both because she's the victim of his mistreatment, and also because she does good without chip or romantic obsession)? I don't know.

Thanks for the link. I don't think I've read that one before. I can't find where it mentions Warren, though.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

it's the relatively harmless Clem he becomes friends with.

Clem is so easy-going, he almost isn't a demon. He's more - a really funny-looking stoner? I get the sense that to the rest of the demon world Spike is persona non grata ever since he teamed up with the Slayer in Becoming. Or is that just with Dru?

The rest of the demon world does seem to hold him at arms length; but they know he can beat them up. OTOH why would he want to beat up Clem? there's no reason.

Maybe because she makes Spike look bad (both because she's the victim of his mistreatment, and also because she does good without chip or romantic obsession)?

He treats her like dirt (even compared to his beloved Dru), and SHE makes him look bad? (i know that's not your view but if it's fandom's - gross. Blame the victim.)

And come ON - she's hilarious in Restless and OOMM. Sometimes I don't get this fandom - or rather I do and I wish I didn't. *shakes head*

I can't find where it mentions Warren, though.

Crap i thought it was in that one. I'll find where it's at and send that link, sorry.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I get the sense that to the rest of the demon world Spike is persona non grata ever since he teamed up with the Slayer in Becoming.

If not then, then after he got the chip and started fighting other demons.

OTOH why would he want to beat up Clem? there's no reason.

For fun?

He treats her like dirt (even compared to his beloved Dru), and SHE makes him look bad? (i know that's not your view but if it's fandom's - gross. Blame the victim.)

This is purely speculation on my part, but I think a lot of people are uncomfortable dealing with the victims of people they like. I know the feeling, more so from other fandoms than this one, and more so when I was a kid, but still, I would have that attitude sometimes, of not wanting to deal with the victims of the bad behavior of characters I liked.

I'll find where it's at and send that link, sorry.

Don't worry about it. It was interesting to read. And it's cool if you can't find the other one.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

If not then, then after he got the chip and started fighting other demons.

It's easy to forget that in School Hard he had minions at his command - sort of paralleled with the demon biker gang in Bargaining now that I think about it ("Chop her into messes" / tearing the 'bot to pieces ..hmmmm....)

This is purely speculation on my part, but I think a lot of people are uncomfortable dealing with the victims of people they like.

I think you're absolutely right. If you're not dealing with that person's dark acts, it's easier to whitewash them. I think I may have read one or two fanfics so far out of hundreds that deal face-to-face with Spike's victims, like the child he chased down in the coal cellar after killing the other family members. People turn Spike into a gentle poet who would NEVER hurt or rape anyone? WTF? Really? (And I'm probably guilty of that with Buffy sometimes, I admit.)

And it's cool if you can't find the other one.

I just asked her which meta that was. But anything she writes is amazing.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

I think I may have read one or two fanfics so far out of hundreds that deal face-to-face with Spike's victims, like the child he chased down in the coal cellar after killing the other family members. People turn Spike into a gentle poet who would NEVER hurt or rape anyone? WTF? Really? (And I'm probably guilty of that with Buffy sometimes, I admit.

Yeah, and I think the show helps with that by not introducing us to any of his victims, except for Nikki Wood, and at least she was an equal fighter. I've always wondered what would happen if someone like Robin Wood, who had family Spike killed, showed up in S4-S6, before he had the soul.

Thanks for the second link! I will read it now.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and I think the show helps with that by not introducing us to any of his victims, except for Nikki Wood,

Actually, in School Hard, Sheila is one of his first victims. (Remember the school's sexually-experienced "bad girl" who hangs out on the wrong side of the tracks, as contrasted with Buffy? and holy shit is that some wonky sexual politics there, Joss) He hides her, bound and gagged, behind the bedroom door and then before leaving Dru he encourages her to "eat something" and throws the terrified girl at Dru; the last thing we see is Dru vamping out.

I don't know what to call that except psychological torture with a sexualized component (bound and gagged, a common trope in torture porn fics) - as well as physical torture, because vamps feed on living humans. It's interesting to rewatch S2 to remind myself what Spike was like before the show (and fandom) woobified him. He was a fucking VAMPIRE, kiddies. He fed off terrified living human beings, and the terror of the victims is part of the thrill, what he "fed" off of in addition to blood. This is truth. Just because he didn't plan things in advance like some elaborate stage show like Angelus doesn't mean he didn't engage in torture or didn't enjoy the suffering of his victims. It just means he has a short attention span, no impulse control, and an inability/unwillingness to plan ahead, like some teenager with ADHD.

what would happen if someone like Robin Wood, who had family Spike killed, showed up in S4-S6, before he had the soul.

Pretty much the same thing that happened in LMPTM, to be honest. That is one area I think the show (and subsequently fandom) fell down - the perpetrator's POV is prioritized over that of the victims. lanoyee and I were talking about this in regards to LMPTM as a matter of fact.
http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/17490.html?thread=375634#t375634
As she said, they went pretty over the top in terms of Spike beating the shit out of Robin and even seeming to bite him - but not doing so just to prove to himself he was in control? Yeah, that's some problematic shit there, and it doesn't get a fraction of the attention that DT does, for instance.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Actually, in School Hard, Sheila is one of his first victims

Good point. I sometimes forget about her since Dru was the one who actually killed her, but Spike still victimized her.

I agree that LMPTM is very problematic, but at least in LMPTM Buffy could fall back on the excuse that Spike was a different man because of the soul. She wouldn't have been able to do that earlier. You have a good point about Robin Wood's beating not getting the same attention as Buffy beating Spike in Dead Things.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I sometimes forget about her since Dru was the one who actually killed her, but Spike still victimized her.

Yeah, Dru's role was relatively passive (not that it's any less evil); she's still housebound/bedbound at that point, and Spike is the one "going to market" to bring home her supper; he has to have been the one to lure her (probably flirted with her, then bound and gagged her.) Sheila's nothing more than fresh meat to them.

S2 is extremely psychosexual in a lot of it's themes and tropes, not necessarily to the good, but then vampires always have been ever since Bram Stoker - linked to negative views of female sexuality. The monster and the woman are linked in the popular culture because female sexuality is "monstrous". This happens to be the episode where Xander pulls a tampon out of Buffy's purse at the Bronze and Spike says "I smell the blood of a nice, ripe girl." Not exactly subtle.

Buffy could fall back on the excuse that Spike was a different man because of the soul.

The thing is the show paints it as self-defense, and maybe this is no different from my contention in my Ted meta that Buffy had a right to fight for her life. But I think as in DT they went a little overboard for emotional effect, but they assumed in both instances we'd have sympathy for the perpetrator not the victim. So that's on Joss for approving it and the writers.

The thing is, in one instance(a portion of) fandom has sympathy for the victim and in another for the perpetrator - because it's Spike in both instances. Ultimately fandom prioritizes him in any situation - and the show oddly enough follows suit, by making his redemption more important, bigger and shinier than Buffy's; by making him the one who saves the day thanks to his sacrifice and the amulet from Angel. In the shooting script it's implied that the Slayer Spell is what actually unlocks the amulet's power and Spike is then connected to the new Slayers - he feels their pain as they are injured - but that doesn't come across in the episode itself.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

Ultimately fandom prioritizes him in any situation - and the show oddly enough follows suit, by making his redemption more important, bigger and shinier than Buffy's; by making him the one who saves the day thanks to his sacrifice and the amulet from Angel.

I wonder how much of that was the writers giving fandom what it wanted, and how much of it was based on the writer's feelings independent from the fandom.

In the shooting script it's implied that the Slayer Spell is what actually unlocks the amulet's power and Spike is then connected to the new Slayers - he feels their pain as they are injured - but that doesn't come across in the episode itself.

I didn't know that. That's a cool detail that I wish they'd kept in.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

ever_neutral kindly sent me the link to her S6 meta. I missed her reference to Warren because it's just a couple of sentences. I thought there was more to it than that, but she puts a lot of power and meaning into just a few words, so I oughtn't be surprised:
http://ever-neutral.livejournal.com/5745.html
"... And I think I'll backtrack and explain my random sympathy for Warren. It was just this one casual moment in Seeing Red, when he's getting ready to kick the ass of some guy he went to school with: "It's Warren! Remember, Warren, gym class, fifth period? You and your jock buddies used to give me such a hard time. That thing with the underwear? God, I thought I'd never stop crying."

... It's [S6] about power.

It's about control and identity too."