Only "occasionally"? I envy you then - my ADD has ADD.
... yeah okay maybe frequently /mumbles
I'll make a point of pulling that bit over here to my journal this week; because it really probably just got lost over there.
I SHALL PREVAIL though yes, posting it in your journal certainly doesn't hurt. ♥
True story - it came out in theaters when my partner and I were first dating in Greensboro NC, and it was either the first or second movie we saw together on a date. (The other was the Ben Stiller film Nothing in Common. Either that was a lousy year for movies or being in love crippled my judgment. Actually, I think it had more to do with my partner's preference for watching comedies.)
Awww, that's cute! Though I wonder if that was the reason you didn't try the series up to now... since the movie is. Not that great. xD
The only part of the movie I remembered afterward was the dream sequence with Buffy and the lead vampire (Rutger Hauer) in her bedroom, that didn't seem like a dream at first - very dark and subtly erotic. It's the one part of the movie that I still connect strongly to the tone of the series (somewhat like the Angelus arc or Dead Things actually).
Joss is really fond of creepy sexy dreams, isn't he?
WHY is it so hard to write this post, and about Tara and Buffy? Because I have TOO damn much to say, not too little.
Ah, yes, that is also I phenomenon I know. :( Though sometimes I can't even distinguish the two because when I have a lot of thoughts they might become so muddled it seems like having no thoughts at all. ... what are brains.
I SHALL PREVAIL though yes, posting it in your journal certainly doesn't hurt. ♥
I have to post the Buffy & Tara introductory thing first - LJ doesn't let me save drafts like blogger (at least the free version doesn't) and that drives me insane. I almost finished it last night and I have SO MUCH I want to say. And I'm having loads of trouble organizing my thoughts lately - more so than usual. I blame the pain meds.)
Awww, that's cute!
Isn't it? I'd forgotten that until after I watched the show, and I think it was reading boot_the_grime's meta that actually reminded me. (I think we went to my favorite Italian restaurant in Greensboro after that, and I had a very creamy blue cheese dressing with no chunks in it afterwards. Weird, the things I remember.)
Though I wonder if that was the reason you didn't try the series up to now... since the movie is. Not that great. xD
But I'd heard great things about the show since then. It may have just been a timing thing - stuff like this comes to me oftentimes when I'm ready for what it has to say to me, and not a minute before that. Also, we've been without tv (cable) since 1997, as I mentioned in the other reply I just sent you, and didn't have Netflix until just a couple (2-3?) years ago. And mostly for my partner and I to watch stuff together, and she is NOT interested in Buffy, at all. Well fine, that's my little thing. I tried.
but beyond that? I'm not sure. There is so much stuff on netflix and so many movies and tv I haven't seen. I was mostly watching movies for a while, but dropped off since LJ and fandom eat a lot of my time. Even when my head is screaming "But I should watch more Bergman films, and silent films!"
I definitely was puzzled that there was an entire field of academic studies - based on a tv show? I thought that was just weird. (Famous last words.)
Joss is really fond of creepy sexy dreams, isn't he?
I thought the same thing when I watched the series - "what another dream sequence?" although in reality there aren't that many of them, but I was watching the series w/in three weeks so that was sometimes misleading. there are actually quite a few in S2 w/Angel etc and the series starts with a Slayer dream, doesn't it? Sometimes I got tired of the dream sequences, but then other times I was sorry that they dropped that aspect of the show - the Slayer dreams that gave the Slayer knowledge about her predecessors and past battles. It's dropped to the point that Buffy ends up going to Spike for information about her predecessors in FFL - which, brilliant episode, but something a little wonky in that perhaps? Which is not something I'd say aloud elsewhere (hah). I wish there had been some consistency with that, but like everything else, it's picked up and dropped again to suit convenience.
DT is an episode I love btw because the entire thing functions almost as a fever dream - but the dream sequence itself, except the bit in Buffy's bed with Spike, doesn't work for me. You can see it in the outtakes of that sequence - it's extremely awkward and Sarah looks like she's trying too hard. And Restless was the first episode to which I said aloud "Bored, now." Willow, Xander and Gile's individual dreams are all very interesting, but by the time they got to Buffy's I was bored, and her's was the least interesting IMO. I do remember thinking "gee Joss has a foot fetish doesn't he?" (Yes, as it happens) I think I appreciate her dream more when I watch it by itself, but it's still the least interesting of the four. Except weirdly the sequence with Riley and Adam. That's genuinely funny, creepy and haunting. How is it that MB's acting was so meh in so much of the series but he's totally ACES in Restless?
Though sometimes I can't even distinguish the two because when I have a lot of thoughts they might become so muddled it seems like having no thoughts at all.
This is one of those "gotta laugh to keep from crying" things, right? I've written a lot of this stuff down in notebooks and it's still muddled.
I have to post the Buffy & Tara introductory thing first - LJ doesn't let me save drafts like blogger (at least the free version doesn't) and that drives me insane. I almost finished it last night and I have SO MUCH I want to say. And I'm having loads of trouble organizing my thoughts lately - more so than usual. I blame the pain meds.)
YES GO I'm eagerly awaiting it. :) Sorry that you have to be on pain meds, though. :( What's the matter, if I may ask?
Even when my head is screaming "But I should watch more Bergman films, and silent films!"
Wow! I haven't even touched the classics in my film-watching, let alone silent films. Definitely something also worth considering.
It's dropped to the point that Buffy ends up going to Spike for information about her predecessors in FFL - which, brilliant episode, but something a little wonky in that perhaps? Which is not something I'd say aloud elsewhere (hah). I wish there had been some consistency with that, but like everything else, it's picked up and dropped again to suit convenience.
You know, that is an incredibly good point. How cool would it have been if Buffy just gradually found out more about herself through meeting other Slayers in dreams over the series? Really, that's one thing I really, really regret -- that Buffy really has little interaction with other Slayers, past or present. The way it is now, her relationship with most other Slayers seems to end up antagonistic, when she thinks about them at all. And just. Ugh. IT COULD'VE BEEN GREAT let me lean on your shoulder and sob about it.
but the dream sequence itself, except the bit in Buffy's bed with Spike, doesn't work for me. You can see it in the outtakes of that sequence - it's extremely awkward and Sarah looks like she's trying too hard.
It's super akward and kind of painful to watch, isn't it? Though for me, that is also because of the content of the dream. Holy shit. I love those outtakes where Katrina's actress is just laughing while SMG is sitting on her, though.
And Restless was the first episode to which I said aloud "Bored, now."
... AHAHAHA I thought I was the only one who isn't super fond of Restless. I mean, it's a great episode, but I guess my brain isn't analytic in a way that gels with dream stuff, at all. I'm conflicted about Buffy's dream sequence, because I do like the iconic quote from it (gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back etc.), but then there's all that super sketchy race stuff there too. :/
This is one of those "gotta laugh to keep from crying" things, right? I've written a lot of this stuff down in notebooks and it's still muddled.
IDK if I'd compare those two things, but... yes. Forever muddled. :( My brain is invariably chaotic and I can't seem to de-chaos it, ever.
SHORT version: pulled something in the lower back in November getting off my bicycle (at a full stop no less), injured disks L3-5, (reinjured from 10 years ago more accurately) nerve pain in the groin at top of right leg and all the way down the outside of that leg. Very stiff in morning, riding in a car is a nightmare re: pain & even on a bus is difficult. Haven't been able to get on my bike since then *sob* although flexibility has improved in some ways. The lack of mobility - being able to ride my bike, as I don't have a car - and the loss of exercise from that, & being mostly housebound has been especially frustrating. Had epidural, not sure how much it helped if at all.
Really, that's one thing I really, really regret -- that Buffy really has little interaction with other Slayers, past or present. The way it is now, her relationship with most other Slayers seems to end up antagonistic, when she thinks about them at all. And just. Ugh. IT COULD'VE BEEN GREAT let me lean on your shoulder and sob about it.
There, there, hon *offers tissues and cookies*
It's kind of ironic that there is a series on lives of the Slayers in comics-form. And, nifty; and I get that they couldn't "do it all" on the series, or that buffy's relationships with Kendra and Faith have to serve story so to speak (the dynamics between her and Faith and her and Spike as her dark mirrors are almost identical btw - and snowpuppies was lamenting the fact that they couldn't make the "subtext text" when it came to the sexual attraction btwn B & F).
I have the same feelings about Willow talking about the women in the Coven in "Lessons" but us not actually seeing them. And wouldn't that tie into the theme of connectedness, and overcoming isolation? Willow rejects the Wicca group in S4 and hunkers down with Tara (which is pretty normal new-relationship behavior IMO.) But actually seeing the women of the Coven onscreen, on a show that is "about" symbolic motherhood but lacks in actual mature mother figures, would have been pretty important I should think. Instead we get "the Guardian". GMAFB.
Don't even get me started on Giles walking in the door with borrowed power in TTG/Grave (have you read eleusis_walks meta on Willow and the problematic nature of her arc? http://eleusis-walks.livejournal.com/47423.htmlmcjulie keeps reminding me that btvs is a "drama with feminist themes" not "a feminist drama" but when the creator claims himself a feminist as a "selling point", then it changes things. And these would have been fairly small fixes IMO.
I do also find it troublesome that: Robin Wood is Buffy's closest link to her predecessors - the only real biological link she has - but Spike's story is prioritized. For understandable reasons, for both Spike's story (he can beat the crap out of someone but hold back from murder, *yawn*), or Robin's role in EP and the heros turning on one another thanks to the First. but still - the end of LMPTM and Robin ending up beaten, looking like one of the many black men and boys in the US who were beaten to death/lynched by whites in 18th-20th centuries, is very disturbing to me. In their eagerness to make their point - and yes, Spike is also defending himself, so maybe it's not different from Buffy in Ted - they go a bit overboard I think? F.ex. Robin's "bruises" are as ugly as Spike's in DT. Different circumstances? Sure, but this is another area where the cognitive dissonance for me is just too great to be comfortable with it. I admit my thoughts on that issue are kind of a mess but then again so is that episode, except for the Giles & Buffy part of it.
It's super akward and kind of painful to watch, isn't it?
The very first part is, because I couldn't tell at first that Spike coming into her bed was just a dream. And that's something that was true of the dream in the movie - I thought it was "real" at first. The rest, not as much for me compared to what we've already seen. BTW - I think I've seen those outtakes but can't remember for certain.
I thought I was the only one who isn't super fond of Restless.
Hah, me too! I think the dream that sticks with me most in some ways is Xander's because I'm getting information about him that has been hinted at but not really explored in any depth. And the satires of lipstick lesbian fantasies, and Apocalypse Now are pretty fantastic IMO.
I'm conflicted about Buffy's dream sequence, because I do like the iconic quote from it (gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back etc.), but then there's all that super sketchy race stuff there too.
Oh god - the race!fail. Again, see my comments about Robin - they had seven years to get their shit together and they just kept failing on this. And the harder they tried to "have diversity" the more embarrassing it got. JFC, yet another "Magical Negro" to show the white protagonist the way, (Baz Luhrmann used the same fucking device in "Australia" just a few years ago - and DID NOT see the problem with that) and Tara in a sari? Ugh.
OTOH - Tara also predicts her own death: "The blood cry, penetrating wound". I noticed that just a few weeks ago writing about the Buffy & Tara connection and holy SHIT; now I can't unsee it.
SHORT version: pulled something in the lower back in November getting off my bicycle (at a full stop no less), injured disks L3-5, (reinjured from 10 years ago more accurately) nerve pain in the groin at top of right leg and all the way down the outside of that leg. Very stiff in morning, riding in a car is a nightmare re: pain & even on a bus is difficult. Haven't been able to get on my bike since then *sob* although flexibility has improved in some ways. The lack of mobility - being able to ride my bike, as I don't have a car - and the loss of exercise from that, & being mostly housebound has been especially frustrating. Had epidural, not sure how much it helped if at all.
Wow, uhm. That really sucks. :( I'm sorry, and I hope your condition continues improving at as fast a pace as possible. /hugs
or that buffy's relationships with Kendra and Faith have to serve story so to speak
Oh, yeah. I understand that, too. Only so much space on a TV show, after all, and it does make narrative sense. What I find unfortunate, though, is that they chose Kendra, i.e. a black woman, to play the perfectly obedient one who follows orders without questioning them. I think somewhere that they even wrote it so that that was why she died -- that she let herself be hypnotized by Drusilla because she was unable to think independently enough to break the spell. And I get that they wanted to offset Buffy in a way, but... the way it played out is just so unfortunate.
and snowpuppies was lamenting the fact that they couldn't make the "subtext text" when it came to the sexual attraction btwn B & F).
Ahem. Yes. I agree with this lament. Where do I sign up for the support group?
But no, really -- Buffy and Faith, and then later Buffy and Satsu, with Buffy going all "omg we can't be together because I am not gay!!!"? It's such a waste, since early on in the series Buffy's Slayer status has been equated with queerness (the Becoming Part 2 scenes, "Slayer pride parade"). I guess I get that they were reluctant to write their heroine as explicitly queer back in the 90s, and also that they were reluctant to introduce a queer side to her later on in the comics, after she'd already become an icon, but still. /pouts WE COULD'VE HAD IT AAAAAAALL
I have the same feelings about Willow talking about the women in the Coven in "Lessons" but us not actually seeing them. And wouldn't that tie into the theme of connectedness, and overcoming isolation? Willow rejects the Wicca group in S4 and hunkers down with Tara (which is pretty normal new-relationship behavior IMO.) But actually seeing the women of the Coven onscreen, on a show that is "about" symbolic motherhood but lacks in actual mature mother figures, would have been pretty important I should think. Instead we get "the Guardian". GMAFB.
I haven't thought about Willow's side too much, but yes, I agree. Also the portrayal of the bake sale Wicca group rubbed me the wrong way. Kind of condescending.
Don't even get me started on Giles walking in the door with borrowed power in TTG/Grave (have you read eleusis_walks meta on Willow and the problematic nature of her arc? http://eleusis-walks.livejournal.com/47423.html
I'm not sure. Thank you for the link, I'll read it!
mcjulie keeps reminding me that btvs is a "drama with feminist themes" not "a feminist drama" but when the creator claims himself a feminist as a "selling point", then it changes things. And these would have been fairly small fixes IMO.
I'm sorry, and I hope your condition continues improving at as fast a pace as possible. /hugs
Thanks hon! this feels like it's a "live with it" sort of thing rather than a "going away anytime soon" deal, but hugs always help.
What I find unfortunate, though, is that they chose Kendra, i.e. a black woman, to play the perfectly obedient one who follows orders without questioning them... the way it played out is just so unfortunate.
THIS. Some fans do read Kendra's death as the show plays it, a result of her not being as good, as creative or intuitive a Slayer. Like I said earlier today, she was under a THRALL. So was Buffy when the Master killed her, and when Dracula bit her. And supposedly she's roofied in the spacefrak in the comics - but, still somehow entirely responsible for her actions? People have been calling Joss out on this shit, and in 15+ years he still doesn't seem to get it. So I have a real problem with the "straight reading" of the situation, aside from the problematic nature, it's neither fair to Kendra nor entirely accurate. Worse, the show kills both women of color - Kendra and Jenny - in S2.
BTW - am I the only person who was uncomfortable with the imagery of "black girl descends from white girl', because I tend to read Kendra & Faith as symbolic childe/grandchilde to Buffy as well as "sister slayers". B/c we know that in fact all humans descend from an African female ancestor. Or am I reading too much into their attempt to add diversity and show that Slayers are not just suburban white girls?
Where do I sign up for the support group?
I'll ask snowpuppies; we may have to create one. I did today sign up for a femmeslash fic awards community I never realized existed.
with Buffy going all "omg we can't be together because I am not gay!!!"? It's such a waste, since early on in the series Buffy's Slayer status has been equated with queerness (the Becoming Part 2 scenes, "Slayer pride parade"). I guess I get that they were reluctant to write their heroine as explicitly queer back in the 90s, and also that they were reluctant to introduce a queer side to her later on in the comics, after she'd already become an icon, but still. /pouts
THIS! I saw the same thing on a S2 episode of Crossing Jordan; Jordan and a lesbian talk show host have a powerful emotional and possibly physical connection (no sex or even a kiss, more a palpable feeling) and the actresses are so, so good at implying the need and want that I wanted to cry. And then Jordan says "But I'm not gay." ARRGGGHHHH! THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT! We're all bi-emotional in some way. Can we DROP the fucking labels already? Oh and the comics? that's just to please the fanboys who think pretty chicks who have sex together is hot as long as at least one of them isn't a "real lesbian." And that sucks because Satsu is an interesting character. (Did you see Sarah's reaction to Buffy sleeping with a girl at the 2008 paleyfest when someone told her for the first time there? Cute.) Re: the queer metaphors, "in the closet" that's in the show all the way back to WTTH but it first becomes really explicit, played comedically, in The Witch, when Buffy under a spell blurts out "vampires" and Joyce says "What?" So it's already there in the show's DNA, but once again it's something the writers use as convenient without always thinking the implications through.
Also the portrayal of the bake sale Wicca group rubbed me the wrong way. Kind of condescending.
I took tarot lessons from a wiccan high priestess in college; at the time it was more empowering than therapy: reading feminist theology, modern paganism, the very notion of the Divine as something female? Powerful stuff in a culture in which "God" is always male, and female is sinful, other, a temptation, dirty etc. OTOH, I did laugh at the "spice rack" joke because there was an iota of truth to it. But it feels like the sort of exceptionalism that the show claims to question with Chosen and the Slayer spell but can't help support anyway. In truth, that scene in Hush is meant to mirror Cordy and the Cordettes mocking Willow in WTTH when buffy meets her; so I'm sure they weren't thinking the implications through, again.
Thanks hon! this feels like it's a "live with it" sort of thing rather than a "going away anytime soon" deal, but hugs always help.
Awww bb. :< The best for you in any case!
Like I said earlier today, she was under a THRALL. So was Buffy when the Master killed her, and when Dracula bit her.
Exactly! And tbh I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"? On the one hand, I always cheer when a lady character stands up against adversity, but OTOH I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse.
And supposedly she's roofied in the spacefrak in the comics - but, still somehow entirely responsible for her actions?
YEAH tbh, I was never even clear on that just by reading the comics. It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either? Make up your mind: if she was freaking cosmically roofied, do not blame her for actions she did not choose to take.
BTW - am I the only person who was uncomfortable with the imagery of "black girl descends from white girl', because I tend to read Kendra & Faith as symbolic childe/grandchilde to Buffy as well as "sister slayers". B/c we know that in fact all humans descend from an African female ancestor. Or am I reading too much into their attempt to add diversity and show that Slayers are not just suburban white girls?
That is something I hadn't thought about yet, tbh. I guess because it seems to me Sineya and the Shadow Men being black was a recognition of humankind originating in Africa? In an incredibly fail way, mind. Also Buffy herself descends from Nikki as well, so there is that. You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know, and the ones who come after her are "derivates" of sorts. So I don't think your feeling uncomfortable with a black girl being a derivate of a white girl is unfounded.
ARRGGGHHHH! THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT! We're all bi-emotional in some way. Can we DROP the fucking labels already?
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right? I guess I do get it in the sense that people are afraid they might be mistaken for being something they are not, or of having the way they define themselves challenged. There's also internalized homophobia, which I think Buffy does have, though she is certainly not openly homophobic and I think she does, half-consciously, try to combat these things? (See: New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".)
Oh and the comics? that's just to please the fanboys who think pretty chicks who have sex together is hot as long as at least one of them isn't a "real lesbian."
Ugh that is so fucking sad. And it seems it was also likely there for a publicity stunt.
And that sucks because Satsu is an interesting character.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her. Also their romance was totally cute. As was SMG's reaction to it.
thanks hon! *hugs* I apologize for not getting back sooner - I've gotten way way distracted reading bone_dry1013's pre-series multi-chap Buffy fic Origins. Did I already give you a link? http://bone-dry1013.livejournal.com/13440.html
I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"?
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse....It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either?
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they'd get from fandom. BTW - I've discovered some of the earlier "non-canon" ones, and "Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy's grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I'd actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know
Yeah I think you pegged it. This is another way in which having had Slayer dreams intertwined with the show more thoroughly so we see Buffy's predecessors would have helped greatly. (bone_dry's Origins story begins with Buffy having a Slayer dream as the girl before her dies, before Merrick even finds her. It makes sense that Buffy would feel her calling in her body and mind first.) Instead, most of Buffy's Slayer dreams in S1-3 are about her relationship with Angel (WTF?) and the only past Slayer we see is Sineya (or the daughter of Sineya?)
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right?
Traditionally even among gays and lesbians, esp lesbians, bisexuality was perceived as "fence-sitting"; a woman who loved people of different genders was not to be trusted. there's a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a "true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused. & The whole "its just a phase they'll outgrow it." (Why doesn't anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it's "real" and homosexuality supposedly isn't.) But I believe all of us lie somewhere on a contiuum, it's not either/or and we need to come to terms with that. I think we'd all be a lot better off. Nature's variety is infinite.
New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith's body) in WAY but Willow doesn't come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to "MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn't grow up in the most "liberal" area.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her.
And a lot of fandom seems to be interested in Satsu as well; she was actually a well-written character. Another massive fail. But Sarah's reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was "Willow?" Hee.
You did! I didn’t have the brains yet to really engage with it, but I’m absolutely planning to read. And I’m also sorry to be so slow responding! I’m writing finals next week, so I’ve been busy wrapping up last assignments (which… sounds so much more hardworking than what I actually did, which was mostly procrastinating and panicking) buuut as of mid-next week, I shall be free!
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
That’s what it all comes down to, huh? How gross.
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they’d get from fandom.
WOW DH. Classy.
BTW - I’ve discovered some of the earlier “non-canon" ones, and “Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy’s grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I’d actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You’re right, those pages are really well-done! And no, it definitely didn’t have to suck. There is so much sequential art out there that proves the whole “comics are just kids’ stuff/superheroes" stereotype wrong. I feel a graphic novel type approach might’ve suited the Buffy comics better, at least in terms of storytelling.
there’s a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a “true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused.
I see! Vampire Reviews mentioned that this is a theme in some vampire lore as well?
The whole “its just a phase they’ll outgrow it." (Why doesn’t anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it’s “real" and homosexuality supposedly isn’t.)
Ahh, yeah. The “it’s just a phase" thing is a big thing in Japan, too — where actually, both gay and lesbian love stories (though much less of the latter) aimed at girls and young women are relatively commonplace. I mean, it’s a niche market, but popular enough that “boys’ love" stories have their own annual event. The girls and women enjoying these stories, however, seem to be largely seen as immature.
I suppose heterosexuality is seen as more “real" because you gotta make the babies.
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith’s body) in WAY but Willow doesn’t come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to “MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn’t grow up in the most “liberal" area.
That… is a really good point. Which I never noticed.
But Sarah’s reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was “Willow?" Hee.
*sporfle* You know, I do totally maintain that Willow was harboring a Buffycrush herself. It’s even hinted at during S8, what with Willow going “I sure do not want to know what Buffy’s like in bed with a lady, nope, I sure don’t".
Re: the queer metaphors, "in the closet" that's in the show all the way back to WTTH but it first becomes really explicit, played comedically, in The Witch, when Buffy under a spell blurts out "vampires" and Joyce says "What?"
Oh, I didn't even catch that! I guess to me it didn't read as quite as obvious as "have you tried not being a Slayer". :P But yeah. Definitely a missed opportunity here. Now I am itching for a re-write AU fic.
I took tarot lessons from a wiccan high priestess in college; at the time it was more empowering than therapy: reading feminist theology, modern paganism, the very notion of the Divine as something female? Powerful stuff in a culture in which "God" is always male, and female is sinful, other, a temptation, dirty etc.
Ohh, that is really interesting! I completely believe you. Personally I am hardly spiritual at all, so I doubt it's something I could identify with, but I do get what you mean -- combating a male-centric, misogynist spirituality with a female-empowering one is something I consider important, since the vast majority of people do consider themselves spiritual in some way and faith/spirituality is a very basic human need.
But it feels like the sort of exceptionalism that the show claims to question with Chosen and the Slayer spell but can't help support anyway. In truth, that scene in Hush is meant to mirror Cordy and the Cordettes mocking Willow in WTTH when buffy meets her; so I'm sure they weren't thinking the implications through, again.
Yeah, it just completely doesn't work out at all, since in WTTH it's Cordy looking down on Willow and in Hush it's Willow being implied to have some sort of superiority over the other women of the Wicca group because she uses Real Magic which is Meaningful instead of wasting her time with silly things like bake sales, omg. Which seems to be saying the opposite of what Chosen attempts (and for some fans, fails) to say in giving a higher value to individual power rather than the action of doing something together from which many people benefit -- though I suppose bake sales do have this vibe of "let's offer something everybody likes and hope they give us money for something we wanna do that's valuable to us"; i.e. a certain degree of making oneself dependent on the goodwill of the general public. I can sort of see the value in both sides -- I think it's good to try and attain things in a friendly manner by offering something nice in return, but I also understand people who say "sometimes playing nice isn't enough, and expecting us to play nice all the time can be oppressive".
... I sure am reading a lot into bake sales. Do I make sense here at all?
I'm sure there's some early seasons femmeslash out there, although I haven't sought it out. I'm actually tired of fics that are written just for two characters to have sex and that's the whole story.
Personally I am hardly spiritual at all, so I doubt it's something I could identify with
I've been all over the map spiritually but I've been an atheist the last few years. A part of me wants to be "spiritual" again but I'm just not feeling it. A part of me is just fine the way I am.
combating a male-centric, misogynist spirituality with a female-empowering one is something I consider important,
Some of the feminist theology I read at the time feels like a bit of fantasy now, and there was a lot of optimistic turning the traditional structures religions inside-out, but other times it was just replacing "He" with "She" but not deconstructing the basic paradigm altogether. And some of it ends up supporting gender essentialism. But I do still think it's important to be able to think in those terms, to conceive "femininity" as well as masculinity as natural, divine, as essential, as Self not Other. Until that's a common view we can't move beyond it.
Which seems to be saying the opposite of what Chosen attempts (and for some fans, fails) to say in giving a higher value to individual power rather than the action of doing something together from which many people benefit
I take Willow's "superiority" in Hush and denigration of the other girls with a few grains of salt in the same way I take Buffy's "my emotions totally give me strength". It would be more troublesome if Hush came after Chosen. (The joke about bake sales is repeated in TKIM, but the image of the coven this time is of a more serious group. But that doesn't change the way that young women's explorations of feminist spirituality is dismissed. In a season in which the "little bad" - Maggie is the one female college professor and scientist we see, and she's a villain. That wouldn't be a problem by itself if there were other positive depictions of women in sciences and academia.)
a certain degree of making oneself dependent on the goodwill of the general public.
You've seen the slogan that goes back to the '70's or '80's? "What if our schools well-funded and the Army had to hold a bake sale?" "Bake sale" is definitely gendered to begin with.
I also understand people who say "sometimes playing nice isn't enough, and expecting us to play nice all the time can be oppressive".... I sure am reading a lot into bake sales. Do I make sense here at all?
Absolutely. It's not unlike how people who are activists are called "extremists" (Queer Nation for instance) and told to sit down, be quiet, be patient, work within the system, when the system is inherently fucked-up.
I'm sure there's some early seasons femmeslash out there, although I haven't sought it out. I'm actually tired of fics that are written just for two characters to have sex and that's the whole story.
Oh, there certainly is! You're right, though -- stories where you can see from the beginning that they're just for two characters to hook up... well, I have to be in the mood for that. :|a Mostly I'm sick of it for Spuffy, I think. Mostly because my disbelief has to be suspended a whole freaking lot to believe S2!Spike would in any way make a cute and fluffy partner for Buffy.
to conceive "femininity" as well as masculinity as natural, divine, as essential, as Self not Other.
Exactly! You know how I mentioned how I was in this lecture about feminism & anarchism? Someone argued that they thought this whole idea of "equality" isn't something they want to emphasize that much anymore, with the reasoning that it mostly means putting women in men's positions, when really, what also needs to be done is put more value on feminine work and values. Which I think is really important because whoa am I over femmephobia, but I also think... I go into the comic store and am happy when I see a female author name on a cover. I go into a bookstore's non-fiction section and am greeted by 99% male author names, even on books about women. Hell, the whole reason anarchism needs feminism is because anarchist circles seem to also often have men taking the lead? And I'm like, this can't be it. It can't be that most of the writing that shapes our perception of reality is still dominated by male voices to such an extreme extent. And if we want to tear down the walls of oppression, the oppressed's voices need to be heard, to be present. So I think the idea of "equality", of bringing women to a place where men are, is not exactly obsolete yet.
But that doesn't change the way that young women's explorations of feminist spirituality is dismissed. In a season in which the "little bad" - Maggie is the one female college professor and scientist we see, and she's a villain. That wouldn't be a problem by itself if there were other positive depictions of women in sciences and academia.
Too true. :( We have the Watcher Lydia, but half of what she does is... fangirl Spike. She does earn my brownie points later on when she respectfully points out her concerns about Buffy's approach to slaying to Buffy. She was being the classiest out of Travers' little troupe there. And, well, AtS does have Fred! I haven't seen S5 yet, but though she has a serious "dark" streak, she seems to be mostly a positive portrayal! Things-that-happen-in-S5 notwithstanding.
You've seen the slogan that goes back to the '70's or '80's? "What if our schools well-funded and the Army had to hold a bake sale?" "Bake sale" is definitely gendered to begin with.
I'm not sure? Maybe I have. But yeah, agreeing very much. "Baking" is gendered. So is education, in... actually two very contradictory ways, because in Ye Olde Victorian Times (which it seems to me we owe a lot of today's sexism issues to) on the one hand, higher education was mostly closed off to women, but OTOH teaching was one of the few "respectable" employment options a woman could have (there is, of course, a whole lot of classism wrapped up in this too). And even today, it seems like elementary schools are mostly a female domain; whereas, the higher up you go, the more sparse the women get.
Absolutely. It's not unlike how people who are activists are called "extremists" (Queer Nation for instance) and told to sit down, be quiet, be patient, work within the system, when the system is inherently fucked-up.
So much this. Hell, even in our little women's department here at my uni, we got into some fights because we posted articles pointing out the sexism of some posters hanging in uni buildings. There was also an election poster by a conservative group that was... pretty much baiting us.
I do also find it troublesome that: Robin Wood is Buffy's closest link to her predecessors - the only real biological link she has - but Spike's story is prioritized.
Again, agreed. Agreed so hard.
For understandable reasons
Understandable for the narrative choices they'd been making up to that point, yes. Still problematic as fuck.
but still - the end of LMPTM and Robin ending up beaten, looking like one of the many black men and boys in the US who were beaten to death/lynched by whites in 18th-20th centuries, is very disturbing to me. In their eagerness to make their point - and yes, Spike is also defending himself, so maybe it's not different from Buffy in Ted - they go a bit overboard I think? F.ex. Robin's "bruises" are as ugly as Spike's in DT.
YES. It's so disturbing that Spike goes as far as to bite Robin. That was so much overkill to me it wasn't even funny, and I couldn't help feeling that Spike just did it because he could. Robin sure already looked bruised enough. And then there's Spike's handwaving of the murder as "we fought, I won". IDK but for me personally, that kind of thinking only counts when there isn't murder involved.
This was also addressed on the meta-commentathon, have you seen? Mostly about how Spike's still wearing Nikki's coat post-LMPTM. A very cool vid with accompanying meta was linked. It got me thinking kind of a lot.
Hah, me too! I think the dream that sticks with me most in some ways is Xander's because I'm getting information about him that has been hinted at but not really explored in any depth. And the satires of lipstick lesbian fantasies, and Apocalypse Now are pretty fantastic IMO.
TBH the lipstick lesbian thing mostly had me rolling my eyes, and I haven't seen Apocalypse Now so that flew over my head entirely.
Again, see my comments about Robin - they had seven years to get their shit together and they just kept failing on this.
Yes, it's seriously kind of spectacular.
OTOH - Tara also predicts her own death: "The blood cry, penetrating wound". I noticed that just a few weeks ago writing about the Buffy & Tara connection and holy SHIT; now I can't unsee it.
... holy SHIT indeed. Uhm. Wow. :( I wonder if that was intended.
YES. It's so disturbing that Spike goes as far as to bite Robin. That was so much overkill to me it wasn't even funny, and I couldn't help feeling that Spike just did it because he could. Robin sure already looked bruised enough
THIS exactly. It's the same thing as with DT, not trusting us to get the point nevermind the implications of where they're going. Common sense was nowhere on the premises, apparently. And it's worse because they went out of their way to make Robin, who I'd liked up until then, suddenly very stalkery and almost over the top bad guy, rather than acknowledging the very real pain of being a Slayer's son (and an orphan). Spike's little speech was just so patronizing and I think the show is presenting that as "truth"? Meh. Spike may know Buffy to a degree, but he's not the expert on Slayer psychology.
And then there's Spike's handwaving of the murder as "we fought, I won". IDK but for me personally, that kind of thinking only counts when there isn't murder involved.
In the context of the show's mythology I don't have as much problem with that one line by itself, it's everything else it's buried in that's the problem. Slayers are vampires are depicted as soldiers on opposing armies, basically, from the start, superpowered and meant to be enemies; it's a war. So I don't see it as "murder" in the way we mean it in civilian law. The fact that it gets handwaved by factions of fandom is what makes it more troubling IMO.
Mostly about how Spike's still wearing Nikki's coat post-LMPTM. A very cool vid with accompanying meta was linked. It got me thinking kind of a lot.
I saw that some time ago; I agree with the creators' meta assessment that the video itself doesn't communicate what they were trying to get across due to a lack of images to work with; but the thing that affected me most was this one observation: That "Spike is wearing Nikki Woods skin" FUCK I have never been able to look at that coat the same way since.
holy SHIT indeed. Uhm. Wow. :( I wonder if that was intended.
I honestly doubt it but it's still creepy as hell.
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2013-06-15 11:32 pm (UTC)... yeah okay maybe frequently /mumbles
I'll make a point of pulling that bit over here to my journal this week; because it really probably just got lost over there.
I SHALL PREVAIL though yes, posting it in your journal certainly doesn't hurt. ♥
True story - it came out in theaters when my partner and I were first dating in Greensboro NC, and it was either the first or second movie we saw together on a date. (The other was the Ben Stiller film Nothing in Common. Either that was a lousy year for movies or being in love crippled my judgment. Actually, I think it had more to do with my partner's preference for watching comedies.)
Awww, that's cute! Though I wonder if that was the reason you didn't try the series up to now... since the movie is. Not that great. xD
The only part of the movie I remembered afterward was the dream sequence with Buffy and the lead vampire (Rutger Hauer) in her bedroom, that didn't seem like a dream at first - very dark and subtly erotic. It's the one part of the movie that I still connect strongly to the tone of the series (somewhat like the Angelus arc or Dead Things actually).
Joss is really fond of creepy sexy dreams, isn't he?
WHY is it so hard to write this post, and about Tara and Buffy? Because I have TOO damn much to say, not too little.
Ah, yes, that is also I phenomenon I know. :( Though sometimes I can't even distinguish the two because when I have a lot of thoughts they might become so muddled it seems like having no thoughts at all. ... what are brains.
no subject
Date: 2013-06-17 01:58 pm (UTC)Hah, thought so. ;)
I SHALL PREVAIL though yes, posting it in your journal certainly doesn't hurt. ♥
I have to post the Buffy & Tara introductory thing first - LJ doesn't let me save drafts like blogger (at least the free version doesn't) and that drives me insane. I almost finished it last night and I have SO MUCH I want to say. And I'm having loads of trouble organizing my thoughts lately - more so than usual. I blame the pain meds.)
Awww, that's cute!
Isn't it? I'd forgotten that until after I watched the show, and I think it was reading
Though I wonder if that was the reason you didn't try the series up to now... since the movie is. Not that great. xD
But I'd heard great things about the show since then. It may have just been a timing thing - stuff like this comes to me oftentimes when I'm ready for what it has to say to me, and not a minute before that. Also, we've been without tv (cable) since 1997, as I mentioned in the other reply I just sent you, and didn't have Netflix until just a couple (2-3?) years ago. And mostly for my partner and I to watch stuff together, and she is NOT interested in Buffy, at all. Well fine, that's my little thing. I tried.
but beyond that? I'm not sure. There is so much stuff on netflix and so many movies and tv I haven't seen. I was mostly watching movies for a while, but dropped off since LJ and fandom eat a lot of my time. Even when my head is screaming "But I should watch more Bergman films, and silent films!"
I definitely was puzzled that there was an entire field of academic studies - based on a tv show? I thought that was just weird. (Famous last words.)
Joss is really fond of creepy sexy dreams, isn't he?
I thought the same thing when I watched the series - "what another dream sequence?" although in reality there aren't that many of them, but I was watching the series w/in three weeks so that was sometimes misleading. there are actually quite a few in S2 w/Angel etc and the series starts with a Slayer dream, doesn't it? Sometimes I got tired of the dream sequences, but then other times I was sorry that they dropped that aspect of the show - the Slayer dreams that gave the Slayer knowledge about her predecessors and past battles. It's dropped to the point that Buffy ends up going to Spike for information about her predecessors in FFL - which, brilliant episode, but something a little wonky in that perhaps? Which is not something I'd say aloud elsewhere (hah). I wish there had been some consistency with that, but like everything else, it's picked up and dropped again to suit convenience.
DT is an episode I love btw because the entire thing functions almost as a fever dream - but the dream sequence itself, except the bit in Buffy's bed with Spike, doesn't work for me. You can see it in the outtakes of that sequence - it's extremely awkward and Sarah looks like she's trying too hard. And Restless was the first episode to which I said aloud "Bored, now." Willow, Xander and Gile's individual dreams are all very interesting, but by the time they got to Buffy's I was bored, and her's was the least interesting IMO. I do remember thinking "gee Joss has a foot fetish doesn't he?" (Yes, as it happens) I think I appreciate her dream more when I watch it by itself, but it's still the least interesting of the four. Except weirdly the sequence with Riley and Adam. That's genuinely funny, creepy and haunting. How is it that MB's acting was so meh in so much of the series but he's totally ACES in Restless?
Though sometimes I can't even distinguish the two because when I have a lot of thoughts they might become so muddled it seems like having no thoughts at all.
This is one of those "gotta laugh to keep from crying" things, right? I've written a lot of this stuff down in notebooks and it's still muddled.
no subject
Date: 2013-06-17 03:01 pm (UTC)YES GO I'm eagerly awaiting it. :) Sorry that you have to be on pain meds, though. :( What's the matter, if I may ask?
Even when my head is screaming "But I should watch more Bergman films, and silent films!"
Wow! I haven't even touched the classics in my film-watching, let alone silent films. Definitely something also worth considering.
It's dropped to the point that Buffy ends up going to Spike for information about her predecessors in FFL - which, brilliant episode, but something a little wonky in that perhaps? Which is not something I'd say aloud elsewhere (hah). I wish there had been some consistency with that, but like everything else, it's picked up and dropped again to suit convenience.
You know, that is an incredibly good point. How cool would it have been if Buffy just gradually found out more about herself through meeting other Slayers in dreams over the series? Really, that's one thing I really, really regret -- that Buffy really has little interaction with other Slayers, past or present. The way it is now, her relationship with most other Slayers seems to end up antagonistic, when she thinks about them at all. And just. Ugh. IT COULD'VE BEEN GREAT let me lean on your shoulder and sob about it.
but the dream sequence itself, except the bit in Buffy's bed with Spike, doesn't work for me. You can see it in the outtakes of that sequence - it's extremely awkward and Sarah looks like she's trying too hard.
It's super akward and kind of painful to watch, isn't it? Though for me, that is also because of the content of the dream. Holy shit. I love those outtakes where Katrina's actress is just laughing while SMG is sitting on her, though.
And Restless was the first episode to which I said aloud "Bored, now."
... AHAHAHA I thought I was the only one who isn't super fond of Restless. I mean, it's a great episode, but I guess my brain isn't analytic in a way that gels with dream stuff, at all. I'm conflicted about Buffy's dream sequence, because I do like the iconic quote from it (gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back etc.), but then there's all that super sketchy race stuff there too. :/
This is one of those "gotta laugh to keep from crying" things, right? I've written a lot of this stuff down in notebooks and it's still muddled.
IDK if I'd compare those two things, but... yes. Forever muddled. :( My brain is invariably chaotic and I can't seem to de-chaos it, ever.
no subject
Date: 2013-06-17 06:01 pm (UTC)SHORT version: pulled something in the lower back in November getting off my bicycle (at a full stop no less), injured disks L3-5, (reinjured from 10 years ago more accurately) nerve pain in the groin at top of right leg and all the way down the outside of that leg. Very stiff in morning, riding in a car is a nightmare re: pain & even on a bus is difficult. Haven't been able to get on my bike since then *sob* although flexibility has improved in some ways. The lack of mobility - being able to ride my bike, as I don't have a car - and the loss of exercise from that, & being mostly housebound has been especially frustrating. Had epidural, not sure how much it helped if at all.
Really, that's one thing I really, really regret -- that Buffy really has little interaction with other Slayers, past or present. The way it is now, her relationship with most other Slayers seems to end up antagonistic, when she thinks about them at all. And just. Ugh. IT COULD'VE BEEN GREAT let me lean on your shoulder and sob about it.
There, there, hon *offers tissues and cookies*
It's kind of ironic that there is a series on lives of the Slayers in comics-form. And, nifty; and I get that they couldn't "do it all" on the series, or that buffy's relationships with Kendra and Faith have to serve story so to speak (the dynamics between her and Faith and her and Spike as her dark mirrors are almost identical btw - and
I have the same feelings about Willow talking about the women in the Coven in "Lessons" but us not actually seeing them. And wouldn't that tie into the theme of connectedness, and overcoming isolation? Willow rejects the Wicca group in S4 and hunkers down with Tara (which is pretty normal new-relationship behavior IMO.) But actually seeing the women of the Coven onscreen, on a show that is "about" symbolic motherhood but lacks in actual mature mother figures, would have been pretty important I should think. Instead we get "the Guardian". GMAFB.
Don't even get me started on Giles walking in the door with borrowed power in TTG/Grave (have you read
I do also find it troublesome that: Robin Wood is Buffy's closest link to her predecessors - the only real biological link she has - but Spike's story is prioritized. For understandable reasons, for both Spike's story (he can beat the crap out of someone but hold back from murder, *yawn*), or Robin's role in EP and the heros turning on one another thanks to the First. but still - the end of LMPTM and Robin ending up beaten, looking like one of the many black men and boys in the US who were beaten to death/lynched by whites in 18th-20th centuries, is very disturbing to me. In their eagerness to make their point - and yes, Spike is also defending himself, so maybe it's not different from Buffy in Ted - they go a bit overboard I think? F.ex. Robin's "bruises" are as ugly as Spike's in DT. Different circumstances? Sure, but this is another area where the cognitive dissonance for me is just too great to be comfortable with it. I admit my thoughts on that issue are kind of a mess but then again so is that episode, except for the Giles & Buffy part of it.
It's super akward and kind of painful to watch, isn't it?
The very first part is, because I couldn't tell at first that Spike coming into her bed was just a dream. And that's something that was true of the dream in the movie - I thought it was "real" at first. The rest, not as much for me compared to what we've already seen. BTW - I think I've seen those outtakes but can't remember for certain.
no subject
Date: 2013-06-17 06:02 pm (UTC)Hah, me too! I think the dream that sticks with me most in some ways is Xander's because I'm getting information about him that has been hinted at but not really explored in any depth. And the satires of lipstick lesbian fantasies, and Apocalypse Now are pretty fantastic IMO.
I'm conflicted about Buffy's dream sequence, because I do like the iconic quote from it (gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back etc.), but then there's all that super sketchy race stuff there too.
Oh god - the race!fail. Again, see my comments about Robin - they had seven years to get their shit together and they just kept failing on this. And the harder they tried to "have diversity" the more embarrassing it got. JFC, yet another "Magical Negro" to show the white protagonist the way, (Baz Luhrmann used the same fucking device in "Australia" just a few years ago - and DID NOT see the problem with that) and Tara in a sari? Ugh.
OTOH - Tara also predicts her own death: "The blood cry, penetrating wound". I noticed that just a few weeks ago writing about the Buffy & Tara connection and holy SHIT; now I can't unsee it.
1/several...
Date: 2013-06-19 06:48 pm (UTC)Wow, uhm. That really sucks. :( I'm sorry, and I hope your condition continues improving at as fast a pace as possible. /hugs
or that buffy's relationships with Kendra and Faith have to serve story so to speak
Oh, yeah. I understand that, too. Only so much space on a TV show, after all, and it does make narrative sense. What I find unfortunate, though, is that they chose Kendra, i.e. a black woman, to play the perfectly obedient one who follows orders without questioning them. I think somewhere that they even wrote it so that that was why she died -- that she let herself be hypnotized by Drusilla because she was unable to think independently enough to break the spell. And I get that they wanted to offset Buffy in a way, but... the way it played out is just so unfortunate.
and snowpuppies was lamenting the fact that they couldn't make the "subtext text" when it came to the sexual attraction btwn B & F).
Ahem. Yes. I agree with this lament. Where do I sign up for the support group?
But no, really -- Buffy and Faith, and then later Buffy and Satsu, with Buffy going all "omg we can't be together because I am not gay!!!"? It's such a waste, since early on in the series Buffy's Slayer status has been equated with queerness (the Becoming Part 2 scenes, "Slayer pride parade"). I guess I get that they were reluctant to write their heroine as explicitly queer back in the 90s, and also that they were reluctant to introduce a queer side to her later on in the comics, after she'd already become an icon, but still. /pouts WE COULD'VE HAD IT AAAAAAALL
I have the same feelings about Willow talking about the women in the Coven in "Lessons" but us not actually seeing them. And wouldn't that tie into the theme of connectedness, and overcoming isolation? Willow rejects the Wicca group in S4 and hunkers down with Tara (which is pretty normal new-relationship behavior IMO.) But actually seeing the women of the Coven onscreen, on a show that is "about" symbolic motherhood but lacks in actual mature mother figures, would have been pretty important I should think. Instead we get "the Guardian". GMAFB.
I haven't thought about Willow's side too much, but yes, I agree. Also the portrayal of the
bake saleWicca group rubbed me the wrong way. Kind of condescending.Don't even get me started on Giles walking in the door with borrowed power in TTG/Grave (have you read eleusis_walks meta on Willow and the problematic nature of her arc? http://eleusis-walks.livejournal.com/47423.html
I'm not sure. Thank you for the link, I'll read it!
mcjulie keeps reminding me that btvs is a "drama with feminist themes" not "a feminist drama" but when the creator claims himself a feminist as a "selling point", then it changes things. And these would have been fairly small fixes IMO.
Yes, agreed.
Re: 1/several...
Date: 2013-06-21 12:55 am (UTC)Thanks hon! this feels like it's a "live with it" sort of thing rather than a "going away anytime soon" deal, but hugs always help.
What I find unfortunate, though, is that they chose Kendra, i.e. a black woman, to play the perfectly obedient one who follows orders without questioning them... the way it played out is just so unfortunate.
THIS. Some fans do read Kendra's death as the show plays it, a result of her not being as good, as creative or intuitive a Slayer. Like I said earlier today, she was under a THRALL. So was Buffy when the Master killed her, and when Dracula bit her. And supposedly she's roofied in the spacefrak in the comics - but, still somehow entirely responsible for her actions? People have been calling Joss out on this shit, and in 15+ years he still doesn't seem to get it. So I have a real problem with the "straight reading" of the situation, aside from the problematic nature, it's neither fair to Kendra nor entirely accurate. Worse, the show kills both women of color - Kendra and Jenny - in S2.
BTW - am I the only person who was uncomfortable with the imagery of "black girl descends from white girl', because I tend to read Kendra & Faith as symbolic childe/grandchilde to Buffy as well as "sister slayers". B/c we know that in fact all humans descend from an African female ancestor. Or am I reading too much into their attempt to add diversity and show that Slayers are not just suburban white girls?
Where do I sign up for the support group?
I'll ask
with Buffy going all "omg we can't be together because I am not gay!!!"? It's such a waste, since early on in the series Buffy's Slayer status has been equated with queerness (the Becoming Part 2 scenes, "Slayer pride parade"). I guess I get that they were reluctant to write their heroine as explicitly queer back in the 90s, and also that they were reluctant to introduce a queer side to her later on in the comics, after she'd already become an icon, but still. /pouts
THIS! I saw the same thing on a S2 episode of Crossing Jordan; Jordan and a lesbian talk show host have a powerful emotional and possibly physical connection (no sex or even a kiss, more a palpable feeling) and the actresses are so, so good at implying the need and want that I wanted to cry. And then Jordan says "But I'm not gay." ARRGGGHHHH! THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT! We're all bi-emotional in some way. Can we DROP the fucking labels already? Oh and the comics? that's just to please the fanboys who think pretty chicks who have sex together is hot as long as at least one of them isn't a "real lesbian." And that sucks because Satsu is an interesting character. (Did you see Sarah's reaction to Buffy sleeping with a girl at the 2008 paleyfest when someone told her for the first time there? Cute.) Re: the queer metaphors, "in the closet" that's in the show all the way back to WTTH but it first becomes really explicit, played comedically, in The Witch, when Buffy under a spell blurts out "vampires" and Joyce says "What?" So it's already there in the show's DNA, but once again it's something the writers use as convenient without always thinking the implications through.
Also the portrayal of the bake sale Wicca group rubbed me the wrong way. Kind of condescending.
I took tarot lessons from a wiccan high priestess in college; at the time it was more empowering than therapy: reading feminist theology, modern paganism, the very notion of the Divine as something female? Powerful stuff in a culture in which "God" is always male, and female is sinful, other, a temptation, dirty etc. OTOH, I did laugh at the "spice rack" joke because there was an iota of truth to it. But it feels like the sort of exceptionalism that the show claims to question with Chosen and the Slayer spell but can't help support anyway. In truth, that scene in Hush is meant to mirror Cordy and the Cordettes mocking Willow in WTTH when buffy meets her; so I'm sure they weren't thinking the implications through, again.
1/this got too long for one comment AGAIN
Date: 2013-07-02 12:36 pm (UTC)Awww bb. :< The best for you in any case!
Like I said earlier today, she was under a THRALL. So was Buffy when the Master killed her, and when Dracula bit her.
Exactly! And tbh I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"? On the one hand, I always cheer when a lady character stands up against adversity, but OTOH I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse.
And supposedly she's roofied in the spacefrak in the comics - but, still somehow entirely responsible for her actions?
YEAH tbh, I was never even clear on that just by reading the comics. It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either? Make up your mind: if she was freaking cosmically roofied, do not blame her for actions she did not choose to take.
BTW - am I the only person who was uncomfortable with the imagery of "black girl descends from white girl', because I tend to read Kendra & Faith as symbolic childe/grandchilde to Buffy as well as "sister slayers". B/c we know that in fact all humans descend from an African female ancestor. Or am I reading too much into their attempt to add diversity and show that Slayers are not just suburban white girls?
That is something I hadn't thought about yet, tbh. I guess because it seems to me Sineya and the Shadow Men being black was a recognition of humankind originating in Africa? In an incredibly fail way, mind. Also Buffy herself descends from Nikki as well, so there is that. You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know, and the ones who come after her are "derivates" of sorts. So I don't think your feeling uncomfortable with a black girl being a derivate of a white girl is unfounded.
ARRGGGHHHH! THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT! We're all bi-emotional in some way. Can we DROP the fucking labels already?
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right? I guess I do get it in the sense that people are afraid they might be mistaken for being something they are not, or of having the way they define themselves challenged. There's also internalized homophobia, which I think Buffy does have, though she is certainly not openly homophobic and I think she does, half-consciously, try to combat these things? (See: New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".)
Oh and the comics? that's just to please the fanboys who think pretty chicks who have sex together is hot as long as at least one of them isn't a "real lesbian."
Ugh that is so fucking sad. And it seems it was also likely there for a publicity stunt.
And that sucks because Satsu is an interesting character.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her. Also their romance was totally cute. As was SMG's reaction to it.
Re: 1/this got too long for one comment AGAIN
Date: 2013-07-12 09:26 pm (UTC)thanks hon! *hugs* I apologize for not getting back sooner - I've gotten way way distracted reading
I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"?
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse....It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either?
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they'd get from fandom. BTW - I've discovered some of the earlier "non-canon" ones, and "Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy's grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I'd actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know
Yeah I think you pegged it. This is another way in which having had Slayer dreams intertwined with the show more thoroughly so we see Buffy's predecessors would have helped greatly. (
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right?
Traditionally even among gays and lesbians, esp lesbians, bisexuality was perceived as "fence-sitting"; a woman who loved people of different genders was not to be trusted. there's a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a "true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused. & The whole "its just a phase they'll outgrow it." (Why doesn't anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it's "real" and homosexuality supposedly isn't.) But I believe all of us lie somewhere on a contiuum, it's not either/or and we need to come to terms with that. I think we'd all be a lot better off. Nature's variety is infinite.
New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith's body) in WAY but Willow doesn't come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to "MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn't grow up in the most "liberal" area.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her.
And a lot of fandom seems to be interested in Satsu as well; she was actually a well-written character. Another massive fail. But Sarah's reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was "Willow?" Hee.
Re: 1/this got too long for one comment AGAIN
Date: 2013-07-13 09:17 am (UTC)You did! I didn’t have the brains yet to really engage with it, but I’m absolutely planning to read. And I’m also sorry to be so slow responding! I’m writing finals next week, so I’ve been busy wrapping up last assignments (which… sounds so much more hardworking than what I actually did, which was mostly procrastinating and panicking) buuut as of mid-next week, I shall be free!
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
That’s what it all comes down to, huh? How gross.
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they’d get from fandom.
WOW DH. Classy.
BTW - I’ve discovered some of the earlier “non-canon" ones, and “Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy’s grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I’d actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You’re right, those pages are really well-done! And no, it definitely didn’t have to suck. There is so much sequential art out there that proves the whole “comics are just kids’ stuff/superheroes" stereotype wrong. I feel a graphic novel type approach might’ve suited the Buffy comics better, at least in terms of storytelling.
there’s a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a “true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused.
I see! Vampire Reviews mentioned that this is a theme in some vampire lore as well?
The whole “its just a phase they’ll outgrow it." (Why doesn’t anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it’s “real" and homosexuality supposedly isn’t.)
Ahh, yeah. The “it’s just a phase" thing is a big thing in Japan, too — where actually, both gay and lesbian love stories (though much less of the latter) aimed at girls and young women are relatively commonplace. I mean, it’s a niche market, but popular enough that “boys’ love" stories have their own annual event. The girls and women enjoying these stories, however, seem to be largely seen as immature.
I suppose heterosexuality is seen as more “real" because you gotta make the babies.
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith’s body) in WAY but Willow doesn’t come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to “MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn’t grow up in the most “liberal" area.
That… is a really good point. Which I never noticed.
But Sarah’s reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was “Willow?" Hee.
*sporfle* You know, I do totally maintain that Willow was harboring a Buffycrush herself. It’s even hinted at during S8, what with Willow going “I sure do not want to know what Buffy’s like in bed with a lady, nope, I sure don’t".
2/2
Date: 2013-07-02 12:37 pm (UTC)Oh, I didn't even catch that! I guess to me it didn't read as quite as obvious as "have you tried not being a Slayer". :P But yeah. Definitely a missed opportunity here.
Now I am itching for a re-write AU fic.I took tarot lessons from a wiccan high priestess in college; at the time it was more empowering than therapy: reading feminist theology, modern paganism, the very notion of the Divine as something female? Powerful stuff in a culture in which "God" is always male, and female is sinful, other, a temptation, dirty etc.
Ohh, that is really interesting! I completely believe you. Personally I am hardly spiritual at all, so I doubt it's something I could identify with, but I do get what you mean -- combating a male-centric, misogynist spirituality with a female-empowering one is something I consider important, since the vast majority of people do consider themselves spiritual in some way and faith/spirituality is a very basic human need.
But it feels like the sort of exceptionalism that the show claims to question with Chosen and the Slayer spell but can't help support anyway. In truth, that scene in Hush is meant to mirror Cordy and the Cordettes mocking Willow in WTTH when buffy meets her; so I'm sure they weren't thinking the implications through, again.
Yeah, it just completely doesn't work out at all, since in WTTH it's Cordy looking down on Willow and in Hush it's Willow being implied to have some sort of superiority over the other women of the Wicca group because she uses Real Magic which is Meaningful instead of wasting her time with silly things like bake sales, omg. Which seems to be saying the opposite of what Chosen attempts (and for some fans, fails) to say in giving a higher value to individual power rather than the action of doing something together from which many people benefit -- though I suppose bake sales do have this vibe of "let's offer something everybody likes and hope they give us money for something we wanna do that's valuable to us"; i.e. a certain degree of making oneself dependent on the goodwill of the general public. I can sort of see the value in both sides -- I think it's good to try and attain things in a friendly manner by offering something nice in return, but I also understand people who say "sometimes playing nice isn't enough, and expecting us to play nice all the time can be oppressive".
... I sure am reading a lot into bake sales. Do I make sense here at all?
Re: 2/2
Date: 2013-07-12 09:44 pm (UTC)I'm sure there's some early seasons femmeslash out there, although I haven't sought it out. I'm actually tired of fics that are written just for two characters to have sex and that's the whole story.
Personally I am hardly spiritual at all, so I doubt it's something I could identify with
I've been all over the map spiritually but I've been an atheist the last few years. A part of me wants to be "spiritual" again but I'm just not feeling it. A part of me is just fine the way I am.
combating a male-centric, misogynist spirituality with a female-empowering one is something I consider important,
Some of the feminist theology I read at the time feels like a bit of fantasy now, and there was a lot of optimistic turning the traditional structures religions inside-out, but other times it was just replacing "He" with "She" but not deconstructing the basic paradigm altogether. And some of it ends up supporting gender essentialism. But I do still think it's important to be able to think in those terms, to conceive "femininity" as well as masculinity as natural, divine, as essential, as Self not Other. Until that's a common view we can't move beyond it.
Which seems to be saying the opposite of what Chosen attempts (and for some fans, fails) to say in giving a higher value to individual power rather than the action of doing something together from which many people benefit
I take Willow's "superiority" in Hush and denigration of the other girls with a few grains of salt in the same way I take Buffy's "my emotions totally give me strength". It would be more troublesome if Hush came after Chosen. (The joke about bake sales is repeated in TKIM, but the image of the coven this time is of a more serious group. But that doesn't change the way that young women's explorations of feminist spirituality is dismissed. In a season in which the "little bad" - Maggie is the one female college professor and scientist we see, and she's a villain. That wouldn't be a problem by itself if there were other positive depictions of women in sciences and academia.)
a certain degree of making oneself dependent on the goodwill of the general public.
You've seen the slogan that goes back to the '70's or '80's? "What if our schools well-funded and the Army had to hold a bake sale?" "Bake sale" is definitely gendered to begin with.
I also understand people who say "sometimes playing nice isn't enough, and expecting us to play nice all the time can be oppressive".... I sure am reading a lot into bake sales. Do I make sense here at all?
Absolutely. It's not unlike how people who are activists are called "extremists" (Queer Nation for instance) and told to sit down, be quiet, be patient, work within the system, when the system is inherently fucked-up.
Re: 2/2
Date: 2013-07-12 10:18 pm (UTC)Oh, there certainly is! You're right, though -- stories where you can see from the beginning that they're just for two characters to hook up... well, I have to be in the mood for that. :|a Mostly I'm sick of it for Spuffy, I think. Mostly because my disbelief has to be suspended a whole freaking lot to believe S2!Spike would in any way make a cute and fluffy partner for Buffy.
to conceive "femininity" as well as masculinity as natural, divine, as essential, as Self not Other.
Exactly! You know how I mentioned how I was in this lecture about feminism & anarchism? Someone argued that they thought this whole idea of "equality" isn't something they want to emphasize that much anymore, with the reasoning that it mostly means putting women in men's positions, when really, what also needs to be done is put more value on feminine work and values. Which I think is really important because whoa am I over femmephobia, but I also think... I go into the comic store and am happy when I see a female author name on a cover. I go into a bookstore's non-fiction section and am greeted by 99% male author names, even on books about women. Hell, the whole reason anarchism needs feminism is because anarchist circles seem to also often have men taking the lead? And I'm like, this can't be it. It can't be that most of the writing that shapes our perception of reality is still dominated by male voices to such an extreme extent. And if we want to tear down the walls of oppression, the oppressed's voices need to be heard, to be present. So I think the idea of "equality", of bringing women to a place where men are, is not exactly obsolete yet.
But that doesn't change the way that young women's explorations of feminist spirituality is dismissed. In a season in which the "little bad" - Maggie is the one female college professor and scientist we see, and she's a villain. That wouldn't be a problem by itself if there were other positive depictions of women in sciences and academia.
Too true. :( We have the Watcher Lydia, but half of what she does is... fangirl Spike. She does earn my brownie points later on when she respectfully points out her concerns about Buffy's approach to slaying to Buffy. She was being the classiest out of Travers' little troupe there. And, well, AtS does have Fred! I haven't seen S5 yet, but though she has a serious "dark" streak, she seems to be mostly a positive portrayal! Things-that-happen-in-S5 notwithstanding.
You've seen the slogan that goes back to the '70's or '80's? "What if our schools well-funded and the Army had to hold a bake sale?" "Bake sale" is definitely gendered to begin with.
I'm not sure? Maybe I have. But yeah, agreeing very much. "Baking" is gendered. So is education, in... actually two very contradictory ways, because in Ye Olde Victorian Times (which it seems to me we owe a lot of today's sexism issues to) on the one hand, higher education was mostly closed off to women, but OTOH teaching was one of the few "respectable" employment options a woman could have (there is, of course, a whole lot of classism wrapped up in this too). And even today, it seems like elementary schools are mostly a female domain; whereas, the higher up you go, the more sparse the women get.
Absolutely. It's not unlike how people who are activists are called "extremists" (Queer Nation for instance) and told to sit down, be quiet, be patient, work within the system, when the system is inherently fucked-up.
So much this. Hell, even in our little women's department here at my uni, we got into some fights because we posted articles pointing out the sexism of some posters hanging in uni buildings. There was also an election poster by a conservative group that was... pretty much baiting us.
no subject
Date: 2013-06-19 06:51 pm (UTC)Again, agreed. Agreed so hard.
For understandable reasons
Understandable for the narrative choices they'd been making up to that point, yes. Still problematic as fuck.
but still - the end of LMPTM and Robin ending up beaten, looking like one of the many black men and boys in the US who were beaten to death/lynched by whites in 18th-20th centuries, is very disturbing to me. In their eagerness to make their point - and yes, Spike is also defending himself, so maybe it's not different from Buffy in Ted - they go a bit overboard I think? F.ex. Robin's "bruises" are as ugly as Spike's in DT.
YES. It's so disturbing that Spike goes as far as to bite Robin. That was so much overkill to me it wasn't even funny, and I couldn't help feeling that Spike just did it because he could. Robin sure already looked bruised enough. And then there's Spike's handwaving of the murder as "we fought, I won". IDK but for me personally, that kind of thinking only counts when there isn't murder involved.
This was also addressed on the meta-commentathon, have you seen? Mostly about how Spike's still wearing Nikki's coat post-LMPTM. A very cool vid with accompanying meta was linked. It got me thinking kind of a lot.
Hah, me too! I think the dream that sticks with me most in some ways is Xander's because I'm getting information about him that has been hinted at but not really explored in any depth. And the satires of lipstick lesbian fantasies, and Apocalypse Now are pretty fantastic IMO.
TBH the lipstick lesbian thing mostly had me rolling my eyes, and I haven't seen Apocalypse Now so that flew over my head entirely.
Again, see my comments about Robin - they had seven years to get their shit together and they just kept failing on this.
Yes, it's seriously kind of spectacular.
OTOH - Tara also predicts her own death: "The blood cry, penetrating wound". I noticed that just a few weeks ago writing about the Buffy & Tara connection and holy SHIT; now I can't unsee it.
... holy SHIT indeed. Uhm. Wow. :( I wonder if that was intended.
no subject
Date: 2013-06-22 01:42 am (UTC)YES. It's so disturbing that Spike goes as far as to bite Robin. That was so much overkill to me it wasn't even funny, and I couldn't help feeling that Spike just did it because he could. Robin sure already looked bruised enough
THIS exactly. It's the same thing as with DT, not trusting us to get the point nevermind the implications of where they're going. Common sense was nowhere on the premises, apparently. And it's worse because they went out of their way to make Robin, who I'd liked up until then, suddenly very stalkery and almost over the top bad guy, rather than acknowledging the very real pain of being a Slayer's son (and an orphan). Spike's little speech was just so patronizing and I think the show is presenting that as "truth"? Meh. Spike may know Buffy to a degree, but he's not the expert on Slayer psychology.
And then there's Spike's handwaving of the murder as "we fought, I won". IDK but for me personally, that kind of thinking only counts when there isn't murder involved.
In the context of the show's mythology I don't have as much problem with that one line by itself, it's everything else it's buried in that's the problem. Slayers are vampires are depicted as soldiers on opposing armies, basically, from the start, superpowered and meant to be enemies; it's a war. So I don't see it as "murder" in the way we mean it in civilian law. The fact that it gets handwaved by factions of fandom is what makes it more troubling IMO.
Mostly about how Spike's still wearing Nikki's coat post-LMPTM. A very cool vid with accompanying meta was linked. It got me thinking kind of a lot.
I saw that some time ago; I agree with the creators' meta assessment that the video itself doesn't communicate what they were trying to get across due to a lack of images to work with; but the thing that affected me most was this one observation: That "Spike is wearing Nikki Woods skin" FUCK I have never been able to look at that coat the same way since.
holy SHIT indeed. Uhm. Wow. :( I wonder if that was intended.
I honestly doubt it but it's still creepy as hell.