Thanks hon! this feels like it's a "live with it" sort of thing rather than a "going away anytime soon" deal, but hugs always help.
Awww bb. :< The best for you in any case!
Like I said earlier today, she was under a THRALL. So was Buffy when the Master killed her, and when Dracula bit her.
Exactly! And tbh I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"? On the one hand, I always cheer when a lady character stands up against adversity, but OTOH I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse.
And supposedly she's roofied in the spacefrak in the comics - but, still somehow entirely responsible for her actions?
YEAH tbh, I was never even clear on that just by reading the comics. It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either? Make up your mind: if she was freaking cosmically roofied, do not blame her for actions she did not choose to take.
BTW - am I the only person who was uncomfortable with the imagery of "black girl descends from white girl', because I tend to read Kendra & Faith as symbolic childe/grandchilde to Buffy as well as "sister slayers". B/c we know that in fact all humans descend from an African female ancestor. Or am I reading too much into their attempt to add diversity and show that Slayers are not just suburban white girls?
That is something I hadn't thought about yet, tbh. I guess because it seems to me Sineya and the Shadow Men being black was a recognition of humankind originating in Africa? In an incredibly fail way, mind. Also Buffy herself descends from Nikki as well, so there is that. You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know, and the ones who come after her are "derivates" of sorts. So I don't think your feeling uncomfortable with a black girl being a derivate of a white girl is unfounded.
ARRGGGHHHH! THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT! We're all bi-emotional in some way. Can we DROP the fucking labels already?
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right? I guess I do get it in the sense that people are afraid they might be mistaken for being something they are not, or of having the way they define themselves challenged. There's also internalized homophobia, which I think Buffy does have, though she is certainly not openly homophobic and I think she does, half-consciously, try to combat these things? (See: New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".)
Oh and the comics? that's just to please the fanboys who think pretty chicks who have sex together is hot as long as at least one of them isn't a "real lesbian."
Ugh that is so fucking sad. And it seems it was also likely there for a publicity stunt.
And that sucks because Satsu is an interesting character.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her. Also their romance was totally cute. As was SMG's reaction to it.
thanks hon! *hugs* I apologize for not getting back sooner - I've gotten way way distracted reading bone_dry1013's pre-series multi-chap Buffy fic Origins. Did I already give you a link? http://bone-dry1013.livejournal.com/13440.html
I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"?
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse....It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either?
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they'd get from fandom. BTW - I've discovered some of the earlier "non-canon" ones, and "Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy's grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I'd actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know
Yeah I think you pegged it. This is another way in which having had Slayer dreams intertwined with the show more thoroughly so we see Buffy's predecessors would have helped greatly. (bone_dry's Origins story begins with Buffy having a Slayer dream as the girl before her dies, before Merrick even finds her. It makes sense that Buffy would feel her calling in her body and mind first.) Instead, most of Buffy's Slayer dreams in S1-3 are about her relationship with Angel (WTF?) and the only past Slayer we see is Sineya (or the daughter of Sineya?)
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right?
Traditionally even among gays and lesbians, esp lesbians, bisexuality was perceived as "fence-sitting"; a woman who loved people of different genders was not to be trusted. there's a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a "true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused. & The whole "its just a phase they'll outgrow it." (Why doesn't anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it's "real" and homosexuality supposedly isn't.) But I believe all of us lie somewhere on a contiuum, it's not either/or and we need to come to terms with that. I think we'd all be a lot better off. Nature's variety is infinite.
New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith's body) in WAY but Willow doesn't come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to "MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn't grow up in the most "liberal" area.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her.
And a lot of fandom seems to be interested in Satsu as well; she was actually a well-written character. Another massive fail. But Sarah's reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was "Willow?" Hee.
You did! I didn’t have the brains yet to really engage with it, but I’m absolutely planning to read. And I’m also sorry to be so slow responding! I’m writing finals next week, so I’ve been busy wrapping up last assignments (which… sounds so much more hardworking than what I actually did, which was mostly procrastinating and panicking) buuut as of mid-next week, I shall be free!
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
That’s what it all comes down to, huh? How gross.
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they’d get from fandom.
WOW DH. Classy.
BTW - I’ve discovered some of the earlier “non-canon" ones, and “Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy’s grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I’d actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You’re right, those pages are really well-done! And no, it definitely didn’t have to suck. There is so much sequential art out there that proves the whole “comics are just kids’ stuff/superheroes" stereotype wrong. I feel a graphic novel type approach might’ve suited the Buffy comics better, at least in terms of storytelling.
there’s a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a “true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused.
I see! Vampire Reviews mentioned that this is a theme in some vampire lore as well?
The whole “its just a phase they’ll outgrow it." (Why doesn’t anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it’s “real" and homosexuality supposedly isn’t.)
Ahh, yeah. The “it’s just a phase" thing is a big thing in Japan, too — where actually, both gay and lesbian love stories (though much less of the latter) aimed at girls and young women are relatively commonplace. I mean, it’s a niche market, but popular enough that “boys’ love" stories have their own annual event. The girls and women enjoying these stories, however, seem to be largely seen as immature.
I suppose heterosexuality is seen as more “real" because you gotta make the babies.
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith’s body) in WAY but Willow doesn’t come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to “MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn’t grow up in the most “liberal" area.
That… is a really good point. Which I never noticed.
But Sarah’s reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was “Willow?" Hee.
*sporfle* You know, I do totally maintain that Willow was harboring a Buffycrush herself. It’s even hinted at during S8, what with Willow going “I sure do not want to know what Buffy’s like in bed with a lady, nope, I sure don’t".
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branchandroot
1/this got too long for one comment AGAIN
Date: 2013-07-02 12:36 pm (UTC)Awww bb. :< The best for you in any case!
Like I said earlier today, she was under a THRALL. So was Buffy when the Master killed her, and when Dracula bit her.
Exactly! And tbh I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"? On the one hand, I always cheer when a lady character stands up against adversity, but OTOH I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse.
And supposedly she's roofied in the spacefrak in the comics - but, still somehow entirely responsible for her actions?
YEAH tbh, I was never even clear on that just by reading the comics. It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either? Make up your mind: if she was freaking cosmically roofied, do not blame her for actions she did not choose to take.
BTW - am I the only person who was uncomfortable with the imagery of "black girl descends from white girl', because I tend to read Kendra & Faith as symbolic childe/grandchilde to Buffy as well as "sister slayers". B/c we know that in fact all humans descend from an African female ancestor. Or am I reading too much into their attempt to add diversity and show that Slayers are not just suburban white girls?
That is something I hadn't thought about yet, tbh. I guess because it seems to me Sineya and the Shadow Men being black was a recognition of humankind originating in Africa? In an incredibly fail way, mind. Also Buffy herself descends from Nikki as well, so there is that. You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know, and the ones who come after her are "derivates" of sorts. So I don't think your feeling uncomfortable with a black girl being a derivate of a white girl is unfounded.
ARRGGGHHHH! THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT! We're all bi-emotional in some way. Can we DROP the fucking labels already?
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right? I guess I do get it in the sense that people are afraid they might be mistaken for being something they are not, or of having the way they define themselves challenged. There's also internalized homophobia, which I think Buffy does have, though she is certainly not openly homophobic and I think she does, half-consciously, try to combat these things? (See: New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".)
Oh and the comics? that's just to please the fanboys who think pretty chicks who have sex together is hot as long as at least one of them isn't a "real lesbian."
Ugh that is so fucking sad. And it seems it was also likely there for a publicity stunt.
And that sucks because Satsu is an interesting character.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her. Also their romance was totally cute. As was SMG's reaction to it.
Re: 1/this got too long for one comment AGAIN
Date: 2013-07-12 09:26 pm (UTC)thanks hon! *hugs* I apologize for not getting back sooner - I've gotten way way distracted reading
I'm not even quite comfortable with this whole notion that being unable to resist a thrall apparently implies weakness or w/e. Really, when WILL we be "strong enough"?
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
I'm tired of this notion that it's always the ones who are being put in a victim's position that have to fight an endless torrent of abuse....It's been a while, so I might misremember, but it seems to me the comics themselves weren't clear on the issue either?
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they'd get from fandom. BTW - I've discovered some of the earlier "non-canon" ones, and "Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy's grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I'd actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You are right, though, that especially if just look at the first three seasons, Buffy seems to us like "the original" simply because she is the first Slayer we know
Yeah I think you pegged it. This is another way in which having had Slayer dreams intertwined with the show more thoroughly so we see Buffy's predecessors would have helped greatly. (
Yeah, it kind of bewilders me that it's always shown as "I've put this label on myself and anything that contradicts that label cannot be" because -- they're one's own feelings, right?
Traditionally even among gays and lesbians, esp lesbians, bisexuality was perceived as "fence-sitting"; a woman who loved people of different genders was not to be trusted. there's a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a "true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused. & The whole "its just a phase they'll outgrow it." (Why doesn't anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it's "real" and homosexuality supposedly isn't.) But I believe all of us lie somewhere on a contiuum, it's not either/or and we need to come to terms with that. I think we'd all be a lot better off. Nature's variety is infinite.
New Moon Rising, where you see she is completely going "okay this is kinda weirding me out but it should not weird me out because my BFF being gay shouldn't be an issue".
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith's body) in WAY but Willow doesn't come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to "MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn't grow up in the most "liberal" area.
She is! I would've liked to know more about her.
And a lot of fandom seems to be interested in Satsu as well; she was actually a well-written character. Another massive fail. But Sarah's reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was "Willow?" Hee.
Re: 1/this got too long for one comment AGAIN
Date: 2013-07-13 09:17 am (UTC)You did! I didn’t have the brains yet to really engage with it, but I’m absolutely planning to read. And I’m also sorry to be so slow responding! I’m writing finals next week, so I’ve been busy wrapping up last assignments (which… sounds so much more hardworking than what I actually did, which was mostly procrastinating and panicking) buuut as of mid-next week, I shall be free!
Which ties back into rape culture. vampirism is an explicit metaphor for sex on the show. So being raped/killed inplies weakness, poor judgment, etc? That is explicitly the point of Sheila in School Hard, the bad girl who flaunts her sexuality and is punished: tortured/kidnapped by Spike and killed by Drusilla - the good girl gone bad via Angel.
That’s what it all comes down to, huh? How gross.
From what I understand, the guys at DH claimed at first Buffy was totally responsible for her own actions, not anticipating the blow-back they’d get from fandom.
WOW DH. Classy.
BTW - I’ve discovered some of the earlier “non-canon" ones, and “Night of 1000 Vampires" deals with Buffy’s grief post-The Body beautifully in the beginning pages. (I’d actually buy this one so I can read the rest of it. Ignore the stupid cover, srsly and hit the click to preview. https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/1378.buffy-the-vampire-slayer-classic-42-night1000-vampires/) This is comics as art, and proof that S8 & 9 DID NOT have to suck.
You’re right, those pages are really well-done! And no, it definitely didn’t have to suck. There is so much sequential art out there that proves the whole “comics are just kids’ stuff/superheroes" stereotype wrong. I feel a graphic novel type approach might’ve suited the Buffy comics better, at least in terms of storytelling.
there’s a lot of historical baggage behind that: the stereotype that a woman who was a “true lesbian" was sick, perverted, & trying to corrupt young girls who were not real lesbians, just confused.
I see! Vampire Reviews mentioned that this is a theme in some vampire lore as well?
The whole “its just a phase they’ll outgrow it." (Why doesn’t anyone say that about heterosexuality? Because it’s “real" and homosexuality supposedly isn’t.)
Ahh, yeah. The “it’s just a phase" thing is a big thing in Japan, too — where actually, both gay and lesbian love stories (though much less of the latter) aimed at girls and young women are relatively commonplace. I mean, it’s a niche market, but popular enough that “boys’ love" stories have their own annual event. The girls and women enjoying these stories, however, seem to be largely seen as immature.
I suppose heterosexuality is seen as more “real" because you gotta make the babies.
Buffy meets Tara (in Faith’s body) in WAY but Willow doesn’t come out to her until NMR several eps later and Buffy is totally blindsided? Now, I think they did this because they wanted to “MAKE A STATEMENT" but someone as intuitive as Buffy is not noticing? Sorry, but my mom, professors and all my friends figured out I was a lesbian way before I came out even to myself. (Which admittedly made the public coming-out process easier.) And I didn’t grow up in the most “liberal" area.
That… is a really good point. Which I never noticed.
But Sarah’s reaction was fabulous: the first thing out of her mouth was “Willow?" Hee.
*sporfle* You know, I do totally maintain that Willow was harboring a Buffycrush herself. It’s even hinted at during S8, what with Willow going “I sure do not want to know what Buffy’s like in bed with a lady, nope, I sure don’t".