Tsunami of Polls #1 : Any interest in a comm devoted to Buffy and the women of the Buffyverse?

[red_satin_doll]

#1 - Thank you to whomever gifted me with a temporary paid account last month. Now I can create polls! Oh wonderful Anonymous Benefactor, you have no idea what you have unleashed upon this fandom.

#2 - Thanks also the the lovely velvetwhip for coming up with the insanely awesome title/tag phrase "tsunami of polls" and allowing me to snag it.

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The other day I was having a conversation with wickedbish in which I may have mentioned that most fandoms and fandom activity, in my experience, are focused primarily on the male characters. I assumed this was common knowledge. Except that he didn't know that. Because, you see, Ryan's favorite character is Willow (see #2 in his list of "13 Witches I Fucking Love"); he still mourns Tara (as do I; shared grief is comforting) and Buffy is one of his heros. The Gift has convinced him to not commit suicide "so many times". He's all about the ladies, bless.

You know what they say about "assuming".

Oops.

 Then clockwork_hart1 (Lucy) popped into the conversation and in her brilliant, enthusiastic way suggested the idea of a comm dedicated to Buffy, the other women in the 'verse and their interrelationships - complete with a name (Summers Blood) and a banner (she's working on it - is there no end to the young woman's talents?) and three-part harmony. What that might actually look like or what interest there would actually be in such a thing was a matter of conjecture. So I'm channeling my inner Willow (Research Gal) for my very first poll.

What say you, Gentle Reader? Based just on the title of this post, you probably know who you are and how you stand.

(And as this is my first poll, please let me know if it functions ok. And I apologize for the wonky formatting. The LJ instructions for poll-making are vague and confusing at best. So says I.)

[Poll #1955410][Poll #1955410]

Comments

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I was wondering when you'd see this - did you feel me drawing you here telepathically?

Ok so now that we know there is interest (at least amoung 20-30 people) what next? I have no idea.

like I said, I'm no pro, I don't really have a clue what I'm doing...

Me neither - I have an image in my head but no way to make the separate pictures into a single banner. (we could approach comlodge down the line perhaps? She's already done those two lovely Buffy & Tara banners. And her Willow/Tara "Goodbye to You" banner is gorgeous.)

Also, very (pleasantly) surprised to see Buffy tip the scales in "Favourite female character" - overtaking Willow, who I was sure would win. Huh, this fandom never fails to surprise me.

It's been interesting to watch the numbers change - Buffy has always been in the lead, but Willow in second is no suprise. It depends on who is answering, who your flist is, etc. I LOVE Buffy, so I suspect if someone doesn't like Buffy at all, they'd be less likely to hang around here *lol*

The comparison that's really interesting to me is between favorite characters and who people are interested in talking about - there's a really wide spread. Buffybot and Harmony are big vote-getters. For a while Joyce and Dawn were one vote behind Buffy. And lots of interest in Tara, but no votes for favorite character.

Did you know that you have to vote in your own poll before you can see the results? Weird.

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

The telepathy and the message in my inbox. Mostly telepathy.

I get the feeling that if we'd have included male characters, the Buffy numbers would fall quite far, but there's a lot of Willow love in the fandom - I get the feeling she'd still be a strong contender.

I kind of figured that people would want to talk about the other characters, but they don't have enough screen-time to be favourites. Both Harmony and the 'bot are interesting morally, and can be seen in both funny and tragic lights, so: interest. And Tara, oh, Tara, we do love you so; but I don't think the way she's constantly reduced to a plot device (especially Willow) gives us the chance to really like her, really get into her as a character in her own right. She's certainly one of my favourites, but not with a definitive "the". Plus, I had to give my love to Fred. I doubted anyone else would. (and was proved right - she doesn't get the love deserved either, in my book; but I'm biased because I over-identify). I see there's lots of Illyria love - I wasn't sure if we could call her "female", I assumed she was Male identifying, or perhaps beyond gender? But if she wants to be a girl, we've gotta give her the right, right?

And I had no idea about the polls. Interesting.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Which is WHY we didn't include the male characters, because they get enough love. (Well, some of them do, anyway.)

Both Harmony and the 'bot are interesting morally, and can be seen in both funny and tragic lights, so: interest. And Tara, oh, Tara, we do love you so; but I don't think the way she's constantly reduced to a plot device (especially Willow) gives us the chance to really like her, really get into her as a character in her own right. She's certainly one of my favourites, but not with a definitive "the".

Pretty much yes to every word of this - if I had included a "Second favorite" poll THAT would have been interesting (hmmm).

And I had never really made the conscious connection between Harm and the 'bot before but you're right about the duality of the characters. Neat.

And did you notice Fred got TWO votes? That's as many as Faith and Illyria, and one more than Anya or Drusilla.

Also, this poll has gotten at least 30 responses. This makes me ridiculously happy for some reason.

But if she wants to be a girl, we've gotta give her the right, right?
endeni rec'd a meta about Illyria by paratti from 2004 that covers the issue of pronouns, and is a wonderful read http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/31317.html?thread=765525#t765525
direct link to meta http://idol-reflection.livejournal.com/6272.html

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

Two votes? She only had one when I checked - C'mon Fred! The women of this fandom are just SO interesting. You even start to forget, depending on what season you've last watched, the last you were close to. And it got me thinking of someone we've forgotten about - Cassie Newton, the girl who knew she was going to die in S7. She was so interesting for a one-episode character (not counting The First from CWDP); smart, sad, funny, and very much like me as a teenager, really (right down to the angsty poetry). And if you dare to tell me Dawn wasn't completely crushing on her I will call out your lies.

30 responses is no mean feat, Sweetie! Very exciting.

And I just checked out that meta - long, but very interesting. I have issues with Illyria, because on the one hand I love her, I love the way she commands the space, the words she speaks, the moral ambiguity of it all (she's one of my favourite characters to write), but on the other hand... It kills me how she came to be. And a lot of people don't care about that sacrafice, in order to bring about such an important character (who only existed for a few episodes, mind you), but it still obliterates my heart. So, herein lies the problem. Interesting, nonetheless.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Yuppers, two same as Faith - which really took me by surprise I thought Faith would have a higher showing. (Everyone knows Buffy and Tara are my girls, but I hope I haven't been scaring fans of other ladies away? 'cause it's all good here. I'd love to get in touch with more Kennedy fans, for instance.)

And it got me thinking of someone we've forgotten about - Cassie Newton, the girl who knew she was going to die in S7. She was so interesting for a one-episode character

OMG I ALMOST included her! Because she is one of my favorite one-shot characters. And not for the reason she's a lot of other people's (because she says to Spike "One day she'll tell you" - I'm interested in the way Dawn and Buffy connect with her; it's really genuinely heartbreaking for all of them.

She's one of the few one-shot characters I still wish had been a reoccuring character, because she fits the themes of the season so beautifully. She's a "proto-potential", and who's to say that she wasn't a Potential who, like Buffy, slipped the WC's notice? Like Buffy, she has dreams of the future, visions - they're both "seers" (or Willow's unromantic "pre-cogs") although the term is rarely applied to Buffy.

There are only a few other such one-and-done characters I wish had stayed. Olivia is more of a three-shot but she counts; the female vampire in The Freshman was an awesome character and would have made a great "little bad" for the early season IMO.

But once I thought about Cassie, then there were other one-and-done characters like Sheila Rosenburg, Marcie in OOSOOM, poor Sheila in School Hard (the victim of Spike & Dru, kidnapped, tortured & terrorized, eaten & turned -and Joss's sexual hang-ups. I have WORDS about this.)

After a while it was just too much. *lol*

30 responses is no mean feat, Sweetie! Very exciting.

I think it's at 37 at this point, if I count the bottom question (which always seems to be one ahead of the top question. Somebody skipped #1.)

but it still obliterates my heart. So, herein lies the problem. Interesting, nonetheless.

And doesn't that pretty much sum up nearly every character in the Buffyverse, and the entire 'verse itself? Willow, for instance, is someone I still struggle with a LOT, and she was the first character I identified with. Finding the love after S6 has been hard. OTOH would I love Tara so much if she hadn't been killed off in such an awful way? And if we get to the men? Oh cheese on a cracker....

This is the stuff that's kept people talking and this fandom alive for over ten years after Chosen.

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

See, I love Cassie a lot. She popped into my head 'cause I was talking to Kelsey about how Dawn is gay in my headcannon (like she is in hers) and I said I thought she had a big crush on Amanda - then I remembered Cassie, and I was like - she was in LOVE. The way they connected so immediately, the way she fought so hard... It's actually more painful to think about it in that light - and I think they would have made an adorable couple. So she just popped into my head and so I thought I'd mention her. And your points about Marcie Ross, Sunday (vamp from The Freshman) and Shelia - did she get a last name? - are totally valid. Awesome characters, if only for one episode. (I think I'd have liked a little more of Sunday than a lot of the Initiative arc, to be honest, because it was so heavy handed, and she slipped in so well - we still remember her). And Veruca, the werewolf girl that Oz fell for could have been more interesting if we'd gotten a little more out of her - but Seth Green leaving kind of killed that.

I have the same issues with Willow as you, I think - she's never "my" Willow again after.. well, after Tabula Rasa, actually. And as for Tara, well, let's just all be thankful that she never got the chance to get ruined (as awful as that is, maybe it was a blessing in disguise?)

But like you say, were all still talking about it - were all still here. And maybe that's the best legacy we ever could had hoped for.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Azura Skye's performance was amazing. Like the Buffybot, Cassie could have gone wrong in so many ways and ended up being so RIGHT. I've rewatched Help and sobbed when she's explaining to Buffy that she can't help her but she appreciates it anyway. And when Buffy is crouched over her body at the end. (TELL ME AGAIN BUFFY IS A CLOSED-OFF BITCH Y'ALL.)

The way they connected so immediately, the way she fought so hard... It's actually more painful to think about it in that light

I can go either way on this (I tend to think of Dawn as "omnisexual" or "whatever no big deal" and I've shipped her post-series with Faith in my own writing.) I think it's tragic whether we see them as friends or potential partners who never were. (And in friendships I think there is often, initially, an amount of "crushing" that goes on.) But, Dawn/Cassie? I'd never thought of that before and now I WANT THIS FIC. THIS MUST HAPPEN. If Buffy and Cassie relate as girls who "don't have a future" because they are fated to die young (so they think), so would she and Dawn re: her experience in S5. And OMG Cassie and Dawn going to the dance together? YES PLEASE.

did she get a last name?

According to imdb she was billed as "Sheila Martini" which sounds just stupid enough to be real. (Really Joss? Not only is she a bad girl compared to the golden girl Buffy because she's sexually active - Xander calls her a slut - and because she's working class, but we HAVE to tack on the implication of alcholism there as well?)

I just have a LOT of feelings about Sheila and I'm too chicken-shit to put them up here in a journal post. I remember watching School Hard and thinking, well if I wasn't aware of Joss' regressive madonna/whore concepts of female sexuality before I am now. And then looking back at screencaps and rewatching the ep and remembering that she's kidnapped, tied up and tossed in a corner of Spike and Dru's bedroom until he takes her out for Dru to "eat" and the poor girl is TERRIFIED. I know horror movies are full of those sort of tropes (teen sex = death and punishment) but it's not being subverted or questioned here at all.

Then the claims that a certain blond vampire *ahem* would never torture anyone, etc don't sit well with me because we do see the evidence. what Sheila endures is psychological torture at the very least, possibly physical because she was overpowered, tied up and gagged. Sheila is a reminder that vampires are MONSTERS, not cuddly pets. But she's a disposable plot device and thus completely forgotten. Even I'd forgotten about her until I was having a conversation with itsnotmymind a few months back.

I think I'd have liked a little more of Sunday than a lot of the Initiative arc, to be honest, because it was so heavy handed, and she slipped in so well - we still remember her

YES. She reminds me a little of other characters who reflect who Buffy once was in Hemery High, or are an inversion of Buffy (esp. Cordy & Glory). Sunday is the leader of her own little "gang" as Buffy is with the SG and was back when she was a "mean girl".

but Seth Green leaving kind of killed that.

Pun intended? I've read that Joss was planning on killing off Oz in S4 so Willow could go scary-veiny anyway. WHY couldn't Seth have stayed a little longer if he was going to be killed off anyway? Veruca could have been the one who killed him, or the Initiative. And then Tara could have LIVED, damnit! (Think about it - Giles finally spirits Willow away to the coven where she meets another young, gentle witch.) Or they could have shipped Willow and Riley because they totally had chemistry, killed him off and avoided the ugliness of cheating on Buffy; then introduced Tara. It could've been perfect. Birds, stone.

she's never "my" Willow again

I have issues with the Snark Squad girls take on Willow in S7 for this very reason. They go along with the story's romantic tragic version of "poor Willow". And the person who suffers the most in the long run for it at least in fandom is...Kennedy. http://fandomforequality.com/2014/01/31/ladies-who-need-more-love-kennedy-buffy-the-vampire-slayer/

And maybe that's the best legacy we ever could had hoped for.

Bringing it back round to the positive? You're a goddess.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Oh and I made a couple of Sheila icons the other day to help ease my pain:



I like to think of it as "fannish creativity as social protest".

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

See, Cassie and Dawn is the most adorable thing! I meed to rewatch Help. Maybe it could kick the muse into gear? *prays*

For a show that was born from the idea of shooting down the horror tropes, that episode kind of employs them in spades. The Madonna/Whore thing is something Joss needs to get the fuck over, though. But, so do most writers. I shame Joss for it because this is a show I feel should know better, but if no one else is employing it... (except maybe Lost Girl, which is about a bisexual Succubus and sex is thoroughly enjoyed by all and never to anyone's detriment, and it's not exclusively tied to undying love blah blah blah).

The torture of Sheila is intrinsically tied to that of Dru by Angelus and Darla in the monastery, too. It's the same thing. Forced to watch two monsters fuck before being eaten alive by them - and god knows what else was actually going on.

Pun intended indeed. And interesting AU (which probably shouldn't be an AU, but there you go - to be honest though, I do quite like Oz, and he got some great lines and he was pretty much the only guy in the whole series I didn't rampantly hate at some point)

And yeah, I've had my fair few issues with the snark squad girls of late. My feelings on S6 and 7 seem to differ quite a lot from thiers. And that Kennedy post? THANK YOU. I needed that in my life! See, I never hated her and actually, she's responsible for one of my favourite fics I've written (Through Dirt was a cathartic thing for me to do), and all of this just makes me like her more. If we'd have had more time, it may have come to more, but look; she was gay, she was a POC and she didn't die or run away. That's fucking impressive considering Joss' MO. Just sayin'

And I always like to bring stuff back to the happy. It's not all doom and gloom in the Buffyverse - I could stand to remember that.

[endeni]

Sorry, butting in...
I've read that Joss was planning on killing off Oz in S4 so Willow could go scary-veiny anyway. WHY couldn't Seth have stayed a little longer if he was going to be killed off anyway? Veruca could have been the one who killed him, or the Initiative. And then Tara could have LIVED, damnit! (Think about it - Giles finally spirits Willow away to the coven where she meets another young, gentle witch.) - OMG, that's the first time I hear of this rumor. This is such an interesting possibility! Where's the fic? Now I want all the AUs! *_*

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

OMG, that's the first time I hear of this rumor. This is such an interesting possibility! Where's the fic? Now I want all the AUs! *_*

Right? Maybe those fics are in a Willow/Tara shipper happyland IDK.