but there was also the scene of him laughing with Joyce and Dawn, perfectly comfortable in the kitchen, in the woman's space
I was talking to comlodge who is a HUGE Spike fan, about my ideas about Spike and Mater, and she agreed that he looses his way in that regard in S6. Buffy and Spike both do, obviously - and they both need to find that again, regain that balance within themselves. Mater and Logos. (I know Pater is the equivalent term of Mater, but Logos gets the point across better IMO.)
And that's the difference between Spike and Angel and Riley (do we ever see them in the kitchen? Or is it a likely glaring but purposeful blank in my mind?): They're the alpha male type.
YES to all of this; I've said elsewhere that the two of them are far more alike than either one of them would like to believe. Superficially they seem very different, but there's a core of paternalistic, rigid & dogmatic thinking; and they both hold very tightly to "male priviledge". I think they are genuinely attracted to Buffy's strength on one level but neither is as "progressive" in that regard as they'd like to think they are. (Of course the show sends some very mixed messages in that regard esp Riley at the end.)
Re: the kitchen - the one time I remember Angel there is in "Angel"(S1?) holding Joyce after Darla has wounded her (and he's immediately tossed out the window by Buffy, who thinks he hurt Joyce. She was wrong, but I love it anyway.) And Riley is seen in the kitchen with Buffy, laughing with her at the beginning of The Real Me (the introduction of Dawn). They seem very comfortable with each other and very happy. (Sarah is so cute there - seeing Buffy happy as late as S5 reminds me how much I miss that in S6 & 7. *hugs Buffy*)
I don't recall him in the kitchen otherwise; but I do remember he was the only one of Buffy's lovers/boyfriends Joyce approves on the show. Which is no wonder - Riley kind of reminds me of Hank in a way. (there's a subtle connection from Hank to Ted to Riley to RJ.)
They can't follow a woman as her second-in-command, and Spike can.
They can as long as they feel entirely confident about themselves. Angel subtly manipulates, Riley is less so. And Spike can but again, loses his way for a while. Giving in to the steady drumbeat (since S5) of you love me we belong together etc etc is one of Buffy's worst mistakes because she starts to go down his path rather than leader him along her's, and it turns into a terrible power struggle between them.
Whereas S7 is the reversal of that - negotiating and sharing power in a new way. And it's no wonder that Giles and Angel are still policing Buffy's private life in S7 (as Riley does in AYW); they're still stuck in the rigid old paradigm. Buffy and Spike have moved on.
Riley and Angel are he-man "I want to be king, dammit!" types, and Spike's a "I'm fine being the prince consort" kind of guy.
Which of course is why I ship Buffy&Spike in S7 so hard it's not even funny. And that's the EXACT same word I've often used: I think of Spike as Buffy's consort that season. (Or each other's consorts, so as to not offend anyone. *lol*)
what if there was space for Tara and Spike to be bffs? That's one of my favorite things in fic. Buffy/Dawn/Spike/Tara is my happy family OT4.
I like the idea of the four of them as a family in theory - in practice, Buffy tends to get left out of the equation. Or rather, there's plenty of fics in which each of them relate not to one another but only to Spike, and there's something about that I find problematic - that the women exist not in relation to one another but to confirm the male character as the center of the universe. There's Spike & Tara or Spike/Tara (I have ISSUES with that pairing), lots of Spike & Dawn; but very little Buffy & Tara & Dawn. :(
Now if someone wrote the sort of fic you described? Sure, I'd go for that. I actually do like the idea of Tara and Spike balancing one another with Buffy in between them as the "centerpoint" but I don't think I've seen it done. If you know of any such please point me towards it. (I don't suppose you'd write such a fic and make me a very happy fangirl? *offers extra cookies*)
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branchandroot
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Date: 2013-06-19 01:18 am (UTC)I was talking to comlodge who is a HUGE Spike fan, about my ideas about Spike and Mater, and she agreed that he looses his way in that regard in S6. Buffy and Spike both do, obviously - and they both need to find that again, regain that balance within themselves. Mater and Logos. (I know Pater is the equivalent term of Mater, but Logos gets the point across better IMO.)
And that's the difference between Spike and Angel and Riley (do we ever see them in the kitchen? Or is it a likely glaring but purposeful blank in my mind?): They're the alpha male type.
YES to all of this; I've said elsewhere that the two of them are far more alike than either one of them would like to believe. Superficially they seem very different, but there's a core of paternalistic, rigid & dogmatic thinking; and they both hold very tightly to "male priviledge". I think they are genuinely attracted to Buffy's strength on one level but neither is as "progressive" in that regard as they'd like to think they are. (Of course the show sends some very mixed messages in that regard esp Riley at the end.)
Re: the kitchen - the one time I remember Angel there is in "Angel"(S1?) holding Joyce after Darla has wounded her (and he's immediately tossed out the window by Buffy, who thinks he hurt Joyce. She was wrong, but I love it anyway.) And Riley is seen in the kitchen with Buffy, laughing with her at the beginning of The Real Me (the introduction of Dawn). They seem very comfortable with each other and very happy. (Sarah is so cute there - seeing Buffy happy as late as S5 reminds me how much I miss that in S6 & 7. *hugs Buffy*)
I don't recall him in the kitchen otherwise; but I do remember he was the only one of Buffy's lovers/boyfriends Joyce approves on the show. Which is no wonder - Riley kind of reminds me of Hank in a way. (there's a subtle connection from Hank to Ted to Riley to RJ.)
They can't follow a woman as her second-in-command, and Spike can.
They can as long as they feel entirely confident about themselves. Angel subtly manipulates, Riley is less so. And Spike can but again, loses his way for a while. Giving in to the steady drumbeat (since S5) of you love me we belong together etc etc is one of Buffy's worst mistakes because she starts to go down his path rather than leader him along her's, and it turns into a terrible power struggle between them.
Whereas S7 is the reversal of that - negotiating and sharing power in a new way. And it's no wonder that Giles and Angel are still policing Buffy's private life in S7 (as Riley does in AYW); they're still stuck in the rigid old paradigm. Buffy and Spike have moved on.
Riley and Angel are he-man "I want to be king, dammit!" types, and Spike's a "I'm fine being the prince consort" kind of guy.
Which of course is why I ship Buffy&Spike in S7 so hard it's not even funny. And that's the EXACT same word I've often used: I think of Spike as Buffy's consort that season. (Or each other's consorts, so as to not offend anyone. *lol*)
what if there was space for Tara and Spike to be bffs? That's one of my favorite things in fic. Buffy/Dawn/Spike/Tara is my happy family OT4.
I like the idea of the four of them as a family in theory - in practice, Buffy tends to get left out of the equation. Or rather, there's plenty of fics in which each of them relate not to one another but only to Spike, and there's something about that I find problematic - that the women exist not in relation to one another but to confirm the male character as the center of the universe. There's Spike & Tara or Spike/Tara (I have ISSUES with that pairing), lots of Spike & Dawn; but very little Buffy & Tara & Dawn. :(
Now if someone wrote the sort of fic you described? Sure, I'd go for that. I actually do like the idea of Tara and Spike balancing one another with Buffy in between them as the "centerpoint" but I don't think I've seen it done. If you know of any such please point me towards it. (I don't suppose you'd write such a fic and make me a very happy fangirl? *offers extra cookies*)