red_satin_doll | "Welcome to the Hellmouth" / "Bring on The Night"

so that's actually a rather strong defense of Sarah on his part esp in context

Which is why I tend to believe it. There's really no reason to defend it and it's not like he jumps at the chance to do so very often. I want to give Aly the benefit of the doubt and think it's a joke gone awry (sarcasm doesn't translate to text well), but she also said some stuff about Gellar not having friends onset, which Brendon said she needed to stop saying because it wasn't true. So I don't know. I just don't buy people, especially the cast, not knowing.

Where does Fox come into it, btw?

Fox produced Buffy (and Angel). WB paid them the rights to air it for 1-5 (which Fox was actually losing money on). After S5, WB didn't want to pay the higher fee, so UPN took over.

Are we still in that era?

Yup.

Sorry to butt in! But from what I remember Alyson was really annoyed at Sarah for announcing her departure in Entertainment Weekly and having her own feature (and possibly a cover?) from it. So I don't think she was joking, I think the real reason she was annoyed was because she thought it was something the cast should have featured in together and not just Sarah, but she expressed her annoyance by instead complaining how unfair it was on the crew to find out about the show ending at the last minute when they have no time to look for new jobs. THAT made her look ridiculous when it was always blatantly obvious that season 7 was meant to be the last. And that's when Joss spoke up to say if anyone on the crew did feel slighted for not being personally informed of Buffy ending then he should take the blame as it was his job to do that. But again it was all a little ridiculous when pretty much everyone knew that UPN had only picked Bts up for two seasons and season 7 was the last, so I really don't think anyone on the crew was upset by it, it was Alyson's own issues with Sarah

Butt in by all means! I know I shouldn't indulge in gossip like this *shifty eyes* but it's like potato chips isn't it?

I think the real reason she was annoyed was because she thought it was something the cast should have featured in together and not just Sarah

Which I suppose could still could be a rationalization for other issues - or more annoyance on a pile of others. As you say, Aly's issues. Obviously they weren't "tight" anymore if they'd ever been in reality. But Sarah having her own covers and interviews was hardly anything new (there's lots of video interview with her from back in the day on YouTube). She was THE star of the show. It's All. About. Buffy. (contrary to popular opinion.) Take away "Willow" or any other major character and the show can still function; f.ex. DB, MN, ASH. Take away Buffy and you've got - a spin-off version. The only contrary example that comes to mind is Valerie Perrine dropping out/fired from "Valerie"; Sandy Duncan stepped in and it became "Valerie's Family." (And that is the only time you'll see it mentioned in the same breath as BtVS.) Was that the same show, a spin-off, or both?

In any case, doesn't the magazine makes the decisions as to who/what it wants to cover? Or is it also on the actor's manager/agent? In any case, I'd say Aly got the last laugh, career-wise.

I think that was a bit of an issue for Alyson definitely, when Bts joined UPN she complained that no one at the WB even knew her name and just treated it as Sarah's show, so she was pleased that UPN recognised Bts as an ensemble show

but she expressed her annoyance by instead complaining how unfair it was on the crew to find out about the show ending at the last minute when they have no time to look for new jobs.

Could be, but again? It's unlikely they wouldn't have known of the EW feature. It isn't as though magazine spreads just pop up out of nowhere. Photoshoot, interview; by the time all that's confirmed, edited and printed it's 2-4 weeks for a weekly rag like EW. People would have known about it. And at that time the spinoffs were still up in the air so it really wouldn't have made a great deal of sense for a full cast spread when the only person confirmed to be leaving at that point was SMG.

My own theory is you're thinking is probably right. She was annoyed that Gellar got all the attention, but...the show is called Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. Of course they're going to focus on Buffy. It's the ensemble thing. It's an ensemble show! ...despite it focusing on one character and one actor handling the bulk of the promotion and workload.

Could be sour grapes. After the thing about friends on Stern, I'm just skeptical of Aly.

My own theory is you're thinking is probably right. She was annoyed that Gellar got all the attention, but...the show is called Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. Of course they're going to focus on Buffy.

Didn't Aly also have those American Pie (or whatever) movies, which I think means that in sheer box office grosses she may be the most successful BtVS cast member? She'd gotten that coveted last spot on in the cast credits that used to belong to ASH. etc. So - two queen bees, one hive? And BTW - I do NOT hate Aly at all; she's funny in interviews (as is Sarah - they're both pros at the game.) in fact I started watching HIMYM because of her (although I've stuck with it because of - pretty much every other cast member esp CS & NPH. After watching Buffy, seeing her performance as Lily is actually a come-down for me. Like, eh, ok, she has her moments of awesome here and there.)

It's the ensemble thing. It's an ensemble show! ...despite it focusing on one character and one actor handling the bulk of the promotion and workload.

*snort*

I'm not sure the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Seth Green holds that title because of Austin Powers, Rat Race, Italian Job, SD2. Then Gellar, then Aly.

I don't really hate Aly, she just seems to have a P/A streak in her 'cause yeah, totally Joss's pet. OMWF commentary? Come on, Joss.

*snort*

That's the thing, though. Joss has actually said this. It's an ensemble show that's really mostly about the one character. So much so that the writers took storylines to make it All. About. Buffy. Earshot? Started as Xander getting mind-reading abilities. They made it about Buffy 'cause "It's always better when it's about Buffy." Find the Buffy in it, etc. Just another in a long line of WTF things Joss has said over the years.

P/A? (I suck at acronyms.)

And damn it, now I'm trying to remember who had that conversation about this subject (Aly & Joss & OMWF) on their LJ and if you were there too (I think so? My memory is NOT my friend.)

Earshot? Started as Xander getting mind-reading abilities.

Eh. If it'd been Xander we wouldn't have had the call back to Band Candy: "You had sex with Giles? On top of a police car? TWICE?" One of the best funniest moments of the entire season IMO.

Was there a point to having it be Xander?

They made it about Buffy 'cause "It's always better when it's about Buffy." Find the Buffy in it, etc.

Not sure where the WTF-ery is in that, I think I'm confused (Which usually happens when I try to understand Joss's own words, so no news there.) More 'splainy, please? I'll got cookies and tea ready.

P/A = Passive-Aggressive.

now I'm trying to remember who had that conversation about this subject

frellingtralk had one not too long ago. I don't know if that's the one you mean, though.

Was there a point to having it be Xander?

Not really. I believe the original premise was a him doing a spell to cheat on a test... don't hold me to that. I'm sure there would have been a moral to the story, but it wouldn't have measured up to what we got.

Not sure where the WTF-ery is in that

Oh, there's no WTFery in making it all about Buffy (I like it that myself, which is why I like the later seasons more). It's in the cross-purposing statement of making the show all about Buffy then claiming it's an ensemble.

Butting in again lol (sorry!) to say that yeah I did ask why Alyson got away with no singing or dancing in the musical a while ago if that's what you mean? http://frelling-tralk.livejournal.com/790092.html#comments

Actually I *think* I remember James Marsters making a comment one time about how they were all terrified but had to take part still, everyone but Alyson for some reason, and he was making some slightly passive-aggresssive comment of his own about he doesn't know how that came about. Just the way he said it gave me the impression that he really was annoyed about it, I can't remember where I read it now though

You remind me of me as a kid, because I would say "I'm sorry" a lot, and my mom would say "What are you apologizing for?"
Me: "I don't know."

Which is to say, no apologies for "butting in", that's what we're all here for! And THANK you for jogging my memory, hon! It's weird that I couldn't remember that it was your journal that conversation was on, but I could remember the color of the page.

I can imagine being annoyed, if you're putting in all that work, singing and dancing. At least Michelle asked if she could mostly dance rather than sing - wise choice in her case - and she was able to contribute her own talents in a way that fit the episode and she could still be comfortable with it. but dancing - choreographed dancing - takes a LOT of work, and some of those moves with the puppets esp and being "flung about" require very precise timing. So kudos to her.

While we're on the subject - I always wondered in the scene where Buffy dances in front of Sweet (until she nearly burns to death) if that's all Sarah or another dancer in her place near the end (where's she's whirling madly and so fast you can barely see her face) as when they use a stunt double for a fight scene? I think it's all her?

Lol I'm terrible about saying sorry all the time, I think it's an English trait *g*

And I'm pretty sure I read that Sarah did all of her own dancing, although they may have brought a double in for stunt type stuff I suppose

And yeah with Alyson I just always felt like she could have done something more than just stand around all episode and sing like two lines of a song, it wasn't like Nicky had any experience with dancing or singing either but he still threw himself into it so I don't see why Alyson couldn't learn the choreography for ONE dance at least, even if just as Buffy's back-up dancer. But all we ever heard was that she didn't want to sing, no idea why she didn't take part in the dancing

I'm terrible about saying sorry all the time, I think it's an English trait *g*

I'm from Michigan so unfortunately I don't have that excuse, it's just me!

Do you remember the scene from "A Fish Called Wanda" where John Cleese explains to Jaime Lee Curtis that the English are so terrified of being embarrassed or saying something that might be awkward etc (I'm paraphrasing, quite badly); he was saying that was an English trait but I identified with it a lot at the time. I think I'm getting bolder in person interactions as I get older, but not by much. And I can go the opposite extreme, saying something very appropriate or coming off wrong without realizing it. Finding a balance point is - a challenge.

Out of curiosity - do you live in the UK? I'd know this is I looked at your profile, wouldn't I?

it wasn't like Nicky had any experience with dancing or singing either but he still threw himself into it

IKR? And Emma was obviously a very good singer (her number in Selfless and then the sudden edit to Anya with a sword in her chest had me in tears), so she and NB could have come off as very unbalanced etc in their number together but - I don't know, it just works. Somehow they "meet in the middle" and it feels like they're having fun with it.

I think Barb was the one who commented/implied on your LJ that Aly was Joss' special snowflake basically, but I could be wrong about that. It's the only way I can see getting out of a substantial contribution to an episode where everyone else is working their asses off esp when they're not comfortable singing or dancing to begin with. I didn't know any of the backstage stuff when I watched the ep last year but I remember thinking it was strange at the time, esp given that the episode was about secrets being revealed and Willow had a HUGE secret. I can fanwank it, but still...

But all we ever heard was that she didn't want to sing, no idea why she didn't take part in the dancing

Reading this I had to giggle because it made me remember her scenes in Nightmares and Restless, being terrified of being onstage. I know Joss has incorporated parts of his actors' personalities into the writing of the characters, so this seems a good example - and something of a semi-private joke.

I'm from Oxfordshire :) I haven't seen A Fish Called Wanda, but that is sooo me lol. As I get older I find myself trying to get to sleep when I am stressing about anything embarrassing or inappropriate that I might have done during the day, or even embarrassing memories from years ago. Even being embarrassed online is a really big deal, I'm not sure what all that says about me :P

And I definitely get the vibe that Aly is Joss's favourite, it was a bit much for him to gush over her having the hardest job of all when Amber is singing in a higher range than normal (something she has admitted struggling with and finding very hard) as well as getting the dance movies right, and literally all Alyson is doing is standing there and doesn't even have to join Amber in dancing a bit which seemed odd at the time. Yet there is Joss on the commentary gushing about how the hardest job is being the one who has to react to the other actress. Umm isn't that something that an actress is used to doing very day?? I wouldn't have thought it would have been that taxing! I'm not saying she didn't do a decent job but all she basically had to do was smile and look wowed by Tara

Even being embarrassed online is a really big deal, I'm not sure what all that says about me :P

I'm not sure - lack of confidence? Because I can get really easily cowed or uncertain of myself (and I don't have the excuse that I'm an Englishwoman) in the face of strong opinions, although I have very strong opinions myself. Or maybe not so much strong opinions so much as a certain tone, if you know what I mean, or a style of expression that allows for no further discussion? I know I'm guilty of the same but then I'll back off in a hurry. And I'm a failure when it comes to things like parties or large gatherings; I stay quiet and am really a wallflower unless I have a "role" to play - giving a presentation or speech, whether for work, impromptu, in a theatrical production etc. I need that mask or I don't know what to say.

Umm isn't that something that an actress is used to doing very day?? I wouldn't have thought it would have been that taxing! I'm not saying she didn't do a decent job but all she basically had to do was smile and look wowed by Tara

Well yes that IS her job and she's been doing it for years, hasn't she? And she reacts to Buffy's reveal beautifully (I love her snarl at Sweet, "Get out") but - again nothing new. Joss' comments certainly come off as insulting. Did he say this on a recorded audio commentary or interview btw or just in print? (I'm actually trying to give Joss the benefit of the doubt? Alert the media). Because so much of what comes out of that man's mouth seems to be sarcastic or at least partially tongue-in-cheek but can be read either way or seems "straight" in print; text doesn't communicate tone. (Even with *ahem* the comics.) Is it possible there was some joking intention there, poking a bit of fun at Aly? I'm assuming others here have heard his comments (if recorded) and can enlighten me on that.

P/A = Passive-Aggressive.

Ok, thanks!

I believe the original premise was a him doing a spell to cheat on a test... don't hold me to that. I'm sure there would have been a moral to the story, but it wouldn't have measured up to what we got.

Very much so! Giles' fears that Buffy will go insane and Buffy overhearing that thought is so wonderfully underplayed and devastating in it's implications - and, hey, unintentional foreshadowing re: Normal Again!

Normal Again is awesome.

YESSSSS! (You wouldn't know it listening to (in my case, reading) the commentary track by the writer and director of the episode. ) I don't lists of favorite eps but if I had to it would be right there in the top somewhere.

I was just looking at screencaps for Earshot and NA and there's a surprising amount of parallels in just the visuals; I plan to have a little fun with it of the pseudo picspammy kind.

I don't do favorite eps lists either, really. I tend to go with favorite episode titles and eps I think are overrated. Favorite method of vamp disposal, etc.

I go with underrated episodes and characters.

So what are your favorite methods of vamp disposal? I assume you mean killing them as opposed to "dust disposal". ;)

Buffy doesn't do dust disposal. Always slaying vamps outdoors? Not a coincidence. :P

Anyway, car door beheading (AtW), holy water switcheroo (Helpless), barbed wire (Showtime) would be in my top 3. Then there are my top 3 badass Buffy scenes: the fight in Anne, raining death down on the ubervamps in End of Days and the alley scene in ItW. Oh, and punching a hole right through the demon in Normal Again.

Buffy doesn't do dust disposal

*snort* You've read Gabrielleabelle's meta, "Buffy and Carpet Cleaning"? http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/280698.html

Anyway, car door beheading (AtW), holy water switcheroo (Helpless), barbed wire (Showtime) would be in my top 3. Then there are my top 3 badass Buffy scenes: the fight in Anne, raining death down on the ubervamps in End of Days and the alley scene in ItW. Oh, and punching a hole right through the demon in Normal Again.

The only one of those I don't love to little bitty pieces is the scene in ITW. I find it uncomfortable and I think I'm supposed to; it's Buffy giving in to her own (justifiable) rage ("the subtext is rapidly becoming text"); in Western movies, shooting an unarmed person in the back is usually the action of the coward or the villain; but it also reminds me of Oz's word "Run" to Tara in New Moon Rising. Who is speaking - Oz warning Tara to get away, or the wolf teasing his prey with a short "head-start" when he knows she can't outrun him? Buffy's headnod has something of that to it.

But your other choices? Oh hell YES. I just rewatched NA btw and yes, that entire scene is awesome - rising up beneath the stairs (RESOLVE FACE!), the oddly graceful windmill action of her left arm as her right hand goes through it's chest (which always reminds me of Primeval and Adam), then that shot of her with her hand covered in goop but she is still so fucking ridiculously elegant somehow. Actually I could do a list of my favorite Buffy hand-shots (NOT including Spike or one of her other lovers, cause that's it's own damn category) but I can only think of a couple: NA, & Primeval (holding her hand up and turning the bullet into doves, and tearing Adam's heart out.) Maybe Bargaining, actually - thrusting her hand up through the soil. And pretty much every single time she runs her fingers through Dawn's hair, for some reason.

This is fun, I'll have to think of some more now! You're ruining me you know.

Oh, I know what you mean. It's uncomfortable because it's a rare time a slaying is personal, but it never bothered me too much because Sandy (I think that was her name) didn't go into that alley to give Buffy a backrub. She and a group of others cornered her en masse with the intent to kill her, were given the chance to walk away and didn't. She didn't run away because she was harmless; she ran away because they lost. So yeah, doesn't bother me much.

I think Sandy was actually the name of the first blond-haired vamp that Riley staked? They met in a demon bar and she started flirting with him and he seemed to be flirting back until he staked her. Which is creepy as fuck.

She and a group of others cornered her en masse with the intent to kill her, were given the chance to walk away and didn't.

Fair enough. I'll have to watch that scene again sometime (I really don't know that I want to watch that ep again - ugh.) It still felt a little unsavory though - and I think it's meant to although they filmed it to look "cool"? I guess another signpost along Buffy's journey into her increasing heart of darkness? (That was not only a mixed metaphor but a badly phrased one, sorry.) She's fooled vamps before to gain advantage but never done that or does so again in the entire series.

Oh and btw - your list on vamp disposal? I liked Buffy's use of a cymbal in The Harvest, and I don't know if this counts but the vampire who gets dusted in mid-air by Faith-in-Buffy in WAY? Awesome.

but she also said some stuff about Gellar not having friends onset, which Brendon said she needed to stop saying because it wasn't true

Did he? I hadn't heard that - or that statement from her but whatever. Relating to co-workers is like any relationship, IMO, (but a tv show is probably esp intense), with the initial "honeymoon" phase that can strengthen with time or sunder; and the cast may not have been literally teenagers, ED & MT being exceptions, but Aly and Sarah were about five years older than their characters? So still at the age where we're forming our identities.

sarcasm doesn't translate to text well

Alas. That's why reading Joss' statements in print can often be head-scratchy. (And even live - I've seen the video on YouTube of AH "apologizing" to Ellen DeGeneres and I don't know the context and don't watch the show, but I have no idea if she's being straight or sarcastic.)

Fox produced Buffy (and Angel). WB paid them the rights to air it for 1-5 (which Fox was actually losing money on). After S5, WB didn't want to pay the higher fee, so UPN took over.

Understand now, thanks!

Yup.

Crap.

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