Potential Rupert Giles Prompt Puppy (don't say "bunny" or Anya will freak, 'kay?)

[red_satin_doll]

ETA 10/08/13: Dead Things screencap

Has anyone ever written a Buffyverse fic in which Giles, not Willow, becomes the Big Bad? The idea occurred to me not long after reading  the episode notes for WTTH  by 2maggie2

In the Bronze, Buffy sees Giles up on the balcony, and he calls her attention to the others out there dancing -- she’s separate from them, with a duty to protect them.  (The scene gets called back in season six in Dead Things when Spike adds another layer to Buffy’s fundamental separation from others – but it starts here in the very first episode).

(Dead Things screencap courtesy of www.bloodqueen.com)

Maggie is talking specifically within the context of how Buffy is separated from her friends/family as the Slayer from the very first episode, but her comments brought back the memory of one of my first visceral reactions to the series.  There was something astonishingly creepy about the way Giles is suddenly "there", beside her, an older man next to a 16-year-old girl (foreshadowing Bangel), and I didn't have a "bead" on his character yet. The idea that he would turn out to be a villain who betrays Buffy and isn't what he seems, was as likely a notion as anything else.  All of which turns out to be true and false at the same time: he doesn't turn out to be a villain but he does have a dark past as the Ripper (as does Angel), he does betray Buffy at times (Helpless, LMPTM), he kills a man behind Buffy's back knowing she wouldn't approve (The Gift).

And when I watched the balcony scene in Dead Things ("Alone in dark with me") my mind was racing back to the parallel scene in WTTH, giving both scenes greater emotional power - foreshadowing squared to th nth egree. The writers surely could not have imagined any of these events when this was written and shot, bu bless* them for knowingly or unknowingly providing the bones right from the start for everything that was to come.

So if I'd had to guess which of the Core Four was most likely to become a Big Bad down the road at the time I was watching S1, I probably would have said Giles.  So it got me wondering if "Giles as the Big Bad" has been done as a fanfiction.  I can't imagine someone in the last 15 years hasn't played with the concept.  If Willow as the Big Bad was fraught with emotional turmoil, the drama and angst of Giles in that role could make LMPTM look like a Sunday cake-walk.

So, gentle flisters - point me the way to one that's already been written, or let that little puppy play around in your head for a while until you come up with something grand. FYI : I've decided to adopt the term plot puppy because: it's still a small, cute animal that you can stroke and love and huggle, and it won't upset Anya needlessly. In this case, a puppy with very sharp teeth that isn't nearly as harmless as it looks.

ETA: beer_good_foamy  and I both ended up rec'ing the same story in the convo thread below,  "All Set Down" desoto_hia873 , an AU take on The Gift (and as you know I seem to have a kink for those.)  Giles is forced to perform a terrible but necessary act.  It doesn't quite fit the "Giles as Big Bad" criteria but it really is quite good.

** (Yes, I know Joss is an atheist. So am I. Or maybe agnostic. Let's go with "undecided".)

Posted on Dreamwidth http://red-satin-doll.dreamwidth.org/11747.html

Comments

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Interesting! Really good point. I can't think of a Giles as the Big Bad fic offhand. I know there are a few fics where he's the bad guy, (I just read one the other day) but they're usually pretty blatant basher-fics. IE, Giles is a bad guy by arrogance and trying to control Buffy's life rather than an actual threat.

You make some excellent points though about the way Buffy & Giles are set up in the first episode; I wonder why I haven't read more Evil giles? Maybe because almost everyone likes him?

You don't see a lot of Evil Anya fic either, and she's a canon bad guy.

[molly_may]

I can only think of one Giles-as-villain story off the top of my head, though surely there are more out there! I don't think this is exactly the kind of thing you had in mind - it's an alternate universe fic, not a story where you see Giles go "bad", and he's really only present in the story for a few paragraphs, but he makes quite an impression. When She Was Bad, by Julie Fortune. (Unlike 99% of the fic I recommend, this is not Spuffy. It's S3 era gen fic.)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Hmmmmm. I think you are right, and I'll bet that scene was put in there to create the space for Giles to "go bad" if they chose to do so later. However, WTTH is all about subverting expectations, so cute schoolgirl is the monster, creepy old guy is the helper, and mysterious guy in the alley is...neither. I'm just as glad that they went the way they did. ;-)

Giles turning into the big bad — through hubris and for the greater good — could work really well. Certainly, they could have used Ms. Calendar's death as the catalyst. I do worry that readers would find it bash-y though. One of the valuable things Giles brings to the story is that of the "sadder but wiser" adult, who made many of the same mistakes Willow did, but was able to overcome his infatuation with power and channel that into a dedication to service. Plus, I guess they needed a "teacher" for the mythic structure to work.

[waddiwasiwitch.livejournal.com]

Oh I would love to read something with an evil Giles.

Hmmm very interesting...

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

WTTH is all about subverting expectations

*nods* Indeed the entire show is. I just remember that scene being the first that actually made my skin twitch for just a few seconds. And I love Giles as is, so this is not a "wish fulfillment" prompt. (Yes I get pissed about Giles leaving in S6 - I have issues.) But there's actually very little I feel the need to "fix" about the series, even when it drops the ball. (Economic/monetary issues being a huge one.) I'm not sure that fanfic isn't better to handle some of those things anyway because we can go into more depth than a 45-minute episode allows.

Certainly, they could have used Ms. Calendar's death as the catalyst.

I'm thinking more of a later seasons thing, where he's no longer so important as a teacher - trying to pull away into his own life (as he has been explicitly trying to do since the first episode of S4.) But yes, that very nearly happened, didn't it, with Giles rushing to kill Angel after her death, horribly inequipped to do so. And Jenny and Tara are the two major irreversible deaths on the show, two women on the fringes of the Scoobie circle who die violently at the hands of Big Bads; or in Warren's case, a "would-be Big Bad"; so there's a neat symmetry in the fact that in S6 it's Giles who once again rushes in to save the day, but this time is armed with magical reinforcement. (Clearly he's learned from that mistake at least.)

I do worry that readers would find it bash-y though.

Well that would be on the readers - or on the writer if they wrote it that way, in either case, I would disapprove. One of the great things about the show is how there is very little black and white, and I love the way two different people/POV's can be simultaneously wrong and right at the same time - ie the complexity. And there are enough really talented writers in this fandom that I'm sure someone could handle the story with similar complexity in the same spirit.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I think that "liking" has a lot to do with it. I've also read a lot of bashing fics; and I understand both Giles' motives in-story (see my note to rebcake downthread), as well as the bashers' reasons; but it always makes for an unpleasant read. I did recently read a post-The Gift story (can't find the link) that initially seemed to be yet another story bashing Giles and the Scoobies (they're the worst, yadda yadda) to make Spike look good; but then eventually it evolves so that I understood that the writer was portraying the situation from Spike's POV as he and Giles come to a moment of shared understanding. Quite clever, actually.

Oh - just yesterday I read a story where Giles does something "necessary but horrible" - another AU take on The Gift, by desoto_hia873, "All Set Down" from 2005. Not a "Big Bad" fic, but quite good. I'd forgotten it when I wrote this.
http://desoto-hia873.livejournal.com/162450.html

And I have no idea why there aren't more Evil Anya fics. Maybe because for most of the run her role is a comedic one, and the one episode that does deal with her past seriously is also the one that made me cry when the sword was run through her, in which she was willing to sacrifice her own life to make right what she'd done wrong? (And was willing to make that sacrifice as a demon, btw. Just sayin'.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

The male mentor betraying the female hero - didn't Joss do exactly that plot in, uh, a later series? (Hard to even say which one without whopping big spoilers...)

I don't recall seeing any fics on that premise - I've seen a few dark Giles fics, including one really good twist on "The Gift" where Giles ends up having to kill Dawn since Buffy's sacrifice turns out to do absolutely nothing*, but none where Giles becomes the real big bad. Huh.

* ETA: Damn if it's not the exact story you mention upthread. Great minds have the same small reference pools. :)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Oh thanks! I'll read the rest of it tomorrow. Have you read desoto's fic that I rec'd to zanthinegirl above?

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

didn't Joss do exactly that plot in, uh, a later series?

I assumed you were teasing me about Angelus but - later series? I wouldn't know, BtVS is the only one of his I've seen.

Damn if it's not the exact story you mention upthread. Great minds have the same small reference pools.

Because the reference pool of greatness is fairly small to begin with, perhaps? It's weird too because I read desoto's story only yesterday.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Then I won't spoil you unless you explicitly ask me to. But yeah, I would say the idea probably occurred to Joss somewhere in the middle of Buffy, but by that time he'd made Giles too "safe" to turn him into an outright villain so he just filed it away for future reference. Yes, Giles gets to be dark occasionally, but it's done in a way that usually makes him more heroic ("Look at what he's overcome!"), showing it so we don't have to wonder about it taking him over. By and large, Buffy never questions that Giles is - or, given the chance, will be - the Good kind of authority. Which makes the idea of a villainous Giles all the more interesting.

[molly_may]

Heh, I probably read it back in 2005, but have forgotten it since! I'll have to take another look at it.:)

[molly_may]

I would say the idea probably occurred to Joss somewhere in the middle of Buffy, but by that time he'd made Giles too "safe" to turn him into an outright villain so he just filed it away for future reference.

Yes! When I saw that particular twist in the series you're referring to, my first thought was that it was a subversion of the Buffy/Giles dynamic.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

WOw, that's a gorgeous dark Giles fic. And it builds nicely on his core ruthlessness; it's exactly the kind of darkfic I like. Thanks for the link!

I find it much easier to believe in this kind of dark-Giles than straight-up evil Giles. I think it's part of the Buffy-verse magic; pretty much every character has a darkness that can be drawn out and expanded on. So much more satisfying than bashing!

Selfless is one of my favorite episodes in the whole series. And so very foreshaddowy!

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Giles turning into the big bad — through hubris and for the greater good — could work really well.

There's a relatively recent fic by possibly bruitti_ma_buoni where Giles get sucked into Wolfram & Hart in an attempt to bring about the great good. I can't for the life of me remember the name though!

eta for better icon choice!

[readerjane]

Ooh! Some promising links to follow-up on.

Someday when I retire I will read all the BtVS fic I can get my hands on. Unless, by that time, the internet has evolved into something too newfangled for my aged brain to navigate. :-)

I think, if Giles were to become the Big Bad, it would be because he was so certain he was Right and Knew Best. Like in LMPTM. Not because he was possessed, or out of loss the way Willow went dark in S6, or because Giles just snapped. It would be the badness of the man who feels privileged to make decisions for other people, because he believed his (genuine) superior knowledge and experience gave him that right.

That attitude must always have been a real danger for Giles, surrounded by teenagers and young adults who really were thoughtless and impulsive much of the time.

Side note: Eee, I'd never seen that parallel between the two balcony scenes! I'd been uncomfortable in the WTTH one, thinking it was weird that Giles would stand so close to a young girl he barely knew. But even though I've watched the series through several times, I didn't tie the scene in Dead Things back to the WTTH one. Now I kinda want to start the whole series again. :-)

[baphrosia.livejournal.com]

It doesn't truly fit your criteria either, but 'Clocks of the Long Now' certainly sets Giles up as a Big Bad.

I've also seen a story where Spike and Buffy time-travel back to the 70's and encounter Ethan and Ripper. Not quite Giles as *the* Big Bad either, but it provides a glimpse of a somewhat out of control Giles. I can't remember who wrote it or what it was called though.

I was actually thinking about Giles, his push for independence, and leaving in S6, and really, Tony had other places to be that season. That's it. Otherwise, him leaving - especially the first time, before they raise Buffy from the dead - makes zero sense. *Giles* would leave the Hellmouth unprotected and Dawn without financial security? Uh... NO. That was just to prepare us all so it wasn't so surprising when he left again. The entire set-up to Buffy's big crappy year is poorly done. I'm really supposed to believe that nobody was contributing financially? Hello, what would have happened if they hadn't managed to bring Buffy back? If it had been RL rather than plot contrivance (ignoring that there's no raising the dead in RL :)), the financial stuff would have been taken care of, not left to pile up. There's no way ANY of those normally responsible adults would have left Dawn in such dire straights. I can't hate the Scoobies for their giant, writer-caused, OOC behaviour when it comes to the financial stuff that is, for some strange reason, all Buffy's responsibility.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

WOw, that's a gorgeous dark Giles fic. And it builds nicely on his core ruthlessness

Doesn't it, though? I could sort of see the ending coming from a key scene in the middle of the tale but that only made it better because it increased my anxiety (the way knowing Tara was going to die sometime in S6 made me flip out when she fell down the stairs in Normal Again. Sometimes suspecting what's coming is worse than being blindsided because I find myself hoping against hope it won't happen.)

I actually got turned on to desoto's fics via a rec from Barb on her LJ, for "Death's Second Self" which is definitely dark and tragic.
http://desoto-hia873.livejournal.com/272438.html
And I'm just starting her post-NFA Spuffy fic (another kink of mine), "Wish You Were Here"
http://desoto-hia873.livejournal.com/279117.html

I think it's part of the Buffy-verse magic; pretty much every character has a darkness that can be drawn out and expanded on. So much more satisfying than bashing!

EXACTLY. That's why I love each one of them, even Xander (ok not Riley or Angel. I have my limits). There were actually so many ways all of their stories could have gone, which is what makes so much fanfiction possible.

And bashing makes me cry and kills fairies. Bashing is not of the good.

Selfless is one of my favorite episodes in the whole series.

When they cut from Anya's singing to her pinned against the wall with Buffy's sword, a single tear running down her cheek, I completely LOST it. That was the last time the series made me cry. (I don't recall if I cried during Chosen, and if I did it was more a "well now it's done" sort of thing rather than the deep well of sadness that Selfless tapped into.) Speaking of that ep, lostboy left a comment on my "Dopplegangers (Xander)" meta and Selfless came up quite a bit in my response to him, though mostly in terms of Xander's arc (and The Lie) rather than Anya. And babbled on much longer than necessary, as always. I'd love to explore that ep a bit more at some point. Have you written meta or fic about it?
http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/5173.html?thread=161333#t161333

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I just rec'd a couple more to her upthread; I'm really enjoying her stuff. And I love that it's still there for me to discover as a new fan.

Heh, I love your icon! I'm tickled that we're all pulling out our Giles icons for the "occasion". (I found mine when jonesiexx used it ten years ago on the_royal_anna's LJ and have been waiting for the right moment to pull it out of the icon closet.)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

There's a relatively recent fic by possibly brutti_ma_buoni

Is it part of her Rulesverse, or an independent story? I can see that scenario happening, and she's a master of Giles-fic. "I'm sworn to protect this sorry world."

I love the scene with him and Buffy in First Date, "I hope you're right" - there's the weight of so much history hanging in the air between them (excuse the lousy mixed metaphor), and they are both so world-weary that my heart breaks for the two of them.

Not quite the same thing, I recently read a post-NFA fic in which Giles is bashed as a villain for not helping when Angel called to save Fred (and having not seen AtS I only know what I read about the show online), so I know that's canon that he rejected Angels call for help - which strikes me as a plot convenience - but not quite the same thing, is it? The crossover possibilities with those two shows are endless - or could have been. It's interesting to see what Joss would have made of a merge of the two worlds (on tv, not the comics.)

YES to the icon choice! BTW - is Giles kissing Anya in your icon? I wanted to say Jenny at first, but he and Jenny never kissed onscreen, did they? I sort of wish Giles/Anya had happened onscreen - the comedy they mined in just one episode was pure gold. Then again, I shipped Giles/Joyce as well. Apparently when it comes to Giles I'm not monogamous. :)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I rec'd desoto's "All Set Down" upthread, which isn't really about Giles being "evil" but rather ruthless because he has to be. (And it's a damn good fic.) And Molly_may rec'd another that I'm just starting - but I'm really surprised the theme hasn't been explored more often. I've seen post-Chosen/NFA fics that bash Giles for not helping save Fred when Angel called, I've also seen the occasional "Giles turned into a vampire fic", but that's it. It may have to do with what beer_good_foamy mentioned, that Giles became "too safe" on the series to make a villain but there's fics where every other character has gone bad, and the potential for Giles seems like it would be catnip for a fan writer.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I would say the idea probably occurred to Joss somewhere in the middle of Buffy, but by that time he'd made Giles too "safe" to turn him into an outright villain so he just filed it away for future reference.

Good point, I hadn't quite thought of that. LMPTM hints at darker possibilities, but only just. (And then playing with "Giles as the First" to tease the audience but that was a complete throwaway.) Perhaps ME lost "the courage of it's convictions"?

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Giles, his push for independence, and leaving in S6, and really, Tony had other places to be that season. That's it. Otherwise, him leaving - especially the first time, before they raise Buffy from the dead - makes zero sense.

::nods wisely::

Are you familiar with the concept of Doylist (or doylian) versus Watsonian story logic? Basically, Watsonian logic is in universe, and doylist is out of universe. Giles leaving in season 6 makes zero sense in-universe. But Tony head wanting to spend more time with his family makes total doylist sense. The writers fell down on their jobs though; their justifications never really work. Spike sticking with Angel in (AtS) season 5 is another good example. From a doylist perspective the network insisted that Spike move to Angel's team in order for the series to be renewed. But it never really works from a watsonian perspective IMO.

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Yup to Anya! It's one of my very first icons, though not one I made myself. So much love for Giles & Anya! I agree though; I like him with Joyce too, or with Jenny. I have to say though that Giles with one of the scoobies tends to seriously creep me out. I can usually see where shippers are coming from even if I don't agree but not in that case!

It's not a rules-verse fic as far as I remember; let me look and see what I can find. Lilah was a major character IIRC.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Someday when I retire I will read all the BtVS fic I can get my hands on.

I read too much as it is - unemployment is a dangerous thing. (Idol hands and all that.)

Total YES on your thoughts about Giles, although the one time we truly see him snap on the show is in Passions, and understandably, crazed with grief and rage but without backup or adequate weapons. It's an interesting mirror to S6, when Willow is similarly crazed, and Giles comes in to stop her, this time with backup from the Coven.

I mentioned LMPTM and First Date upthread a bit so I'll try not to repeat the same comments, but the changed dynamic between Buffy and Giles in S7 fascinates me. In First Date he's in his best "Rational & Logical Watcher" mode, and she counters in the same manner (parry and thrust). One thing I know is that when we learn from our teachers we tend to imitate them until we've processed the lessons and can evolve our own ideas and methods, and I think that's a lot of what's going on there - among a lot of other things. (I could analyze that one scene in First Date all day.)

That attitude must always have been a real danger for Giles, surrounded by teenagers and young adults who really were thoughtless and impulsive much of the time.

Interesting point, I hadn't ever thought of that! Must ponder.

Now I kinda want to start the whole series again. :-)

So do I - reading Maggie's episode notes has sort of been fantastic because there is so much I missed the first time, and the early seasons are so much richer than I even remember. At some point I'll do a proper watch.

And yes, that scene in Dead Things? *chills* And part of what makes is interesting is how much Buffy is changed from one to the other; WTTH starts kind of creepy but Buffy is always in control of the dialogue between her and Giles, confident she knows her job, and how to spot vamps, etc. Her heart hasn't been torn asunder yet.

Found it!

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

It's called Seasons Keep Marching On. It's less "Ebil Big Bad Giles" than "Giles makes a series of increasing bad choices aiming for the greater good".