Buffy the Vampire Slayer 2 x 11: "Ted"

[red_satin_doll]

Originally posted at the Jossverse Big Damn Love Fest: http://big-damn-fest.dreamwidth.org/3818.html


RUNNER-UP: Best Meta (Not Fade Away) category of the Wicked Awards Round 10
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***

Warning and Disclaimer: I have thoughts - and a lot of feelings - about "Ted".  This is quite serious, and more than a little personal; some very triggery subjects will be discussed. I’m not kidding. If this isn't your thing, by all means feel free to hit the back button right now, and no hard feelings.  If you chose to continue otherwise, considered yourself welcome as well as forewarned. But please leave your weapons at the threshhold before you come in. Then wipe your feet on the mat, and help yourself to cookies.  (Or hot cocoa with extra marshmallows.) Also, I apologize for the formatting but LJ is being very disobedient tonight.

And then there's the simple truth that when you engage in violence, accidents happen. We aren't robots. We can't turn off and turn on with the flip of a switch--and if we could, then we'd be okay with murdering people to gain our own ends. That fact that Buffy's violence is motivated by love is essential; it is both dark and light--she dances on the razor edge and she only has her instincts to guide her. - angearia
http://2maggie2.livejournal.com/33960.html

***

In 1958 Lana Turner’s 14 year-old daughter Cheryl Crane stabs her mother’s boyfriend to death, allegedly in an effort to protect her mother.  (The man, Johnny Stompanato, had gang connections and a history of violence behind him.)  The court rules it justifiable homicide.

***


Thirty years later another teenage girl, oldest of four siblings, reads about Cheryl Crane, admires Crane’s courage, and wonders if she would be able to do the same, if the need arose. Her (second) stepfather is a large and powerful man; her mom is barely 5’3”.  Would a baseball bat be sufficient?  A kitchen knife? She decides on a rusty WW1-era bayonet and hides it by her bed. Her mom finds it and removes it without a word.

***


In the end, it’s unnecessary anyway; her mom divorces her husband and her daughter can breathe again, a little, and home becomes a safe place to be for the first time in years. It’s not that the girl wanted to hurt her stepfather.  She knows that would be a horrific act; she also knows that there are people out there, other girls, for whom such things are unimaginable.  But she’s been surrounded by violence her entire life, and so it’s not off the table. What is unimaginable in all her dark reveries, risking death for the sake of her family, is the notion of defending  herself from her stepfather. Not once does that occur to her.

***

In 2012 the same girl, now a woman, finally watches Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the first time. She enjoys the cleverness and subversion of the “high school is hell” metaphors, the witty dialogue, the genre tropes and subversions. She is entertained and amused, even moved at times, but she doesn’t really identify with the pretty, perky ex-cheerleader at the center of the story.  It doesn’t really touch her own experiences, and isn’t remotely scary, even when Buffy goes down to meet her death at the hands of the Master for the first time. (There are a total of seven seasons, after all; ergo, nothing to worry about.)


***


And then the woman watches “Ted” and for a few moments, she is terrified - for Buffy, and for the girl who hid a bayonet by her bed all those years ago. Memories she’s (thought she’s made) made peace with and packed away tumble out unbidden, like an overstuffed dresser drawer.  She knows that her experience is not identical to Buffy’s, after all, and there’s a relief in that; the girl she once was couldn’t fight back, couldn’t protect her herself much less her family, and never even dared to protest or sass back; Buffy can, and does. She has resources that girl of long ago, and most abused children, can never dream of - confidence, physical strength, strength of character and will, resourcefulness, as well as devoted friends who come to her aid.


***


But Buffy Summers is just a girl, after all, a 16 year old girl operating on instinct. She’s been given a “license to kill” (demons) and almost zero guidance in how to use it.  The Watchers’ Council cares nothing for her welfare, or for the countless girls who have preceded her; what matters is that the Slayer does her job properly and follows the arcane rules imposed upon her, traditions handed down through the centuries.

Ted Buchanan, as it turns out, would make an ideal Watcher by the Council’s standards, barring his use of physical violence, and even that’s not a sure thing. After all, the original Shadowmen chained a girl and forced the power of the demon upon her; the Watchers' Council may be more “civilized” on the surface, but they uphold a terrible tradition. The Slayer is used, discarded and replaced when she rebels or no longer suits the councils needs. Surely more personal abuse and violations of Slayers by individual Watchers is not beyond the pale.


***


Likewise Ted demands obedience from a string of women, discarding and destroying them when they disobey him or are no longer useful. How many Slayers throughout time have come before Buffy (later Kendra and Faith)? How many other people has Ted hurt or killed, women who wouldn’t follow the program, in addition to the four wives in his closet?  The Watcher’s Council and Ted both operate within closed systems; they may allow minor changes and adjustments so long as the original paradigm is preserved.

***

Of course Buffy defeats Ted, motivated not just by her Slayer instincts but the instincts of a daughter and friend to protect the people she loves. She’s the Hero, after all. And yet she suffers for her actions; social ostracization, guilt, and shame. Heros may not end up in court charged with justifiable homicide but there are still consequences to bear. (There are always consequences.)


***


Or at least there are if the Hero is a teenage girl. Violence from men is so common as to be unremarkable; violent acts committed by women are still considered shocking. It’s no accident that at the end of the episode Buffy and Joyce agree to a rewatch of Thelma and Louise, a movie that disturbed and polarize audiences because two female protagonists commit violent acts against male characters onscreen; the same violence by male protagonists is a commonplace in movies, and a guarantee of box office sales.


***


So Buffy succeeds but at a cost.  Her mother is safe but heartbroken and terribly lonely, unable to even look her daughter in the eye. Whatever her personal animosity towards Ted, much of it justifiable in light of his behavior, the last thing on earth Buffy ever wanted to do was to hurt her mother. The bond between them, one that suffered fissures long before “Ted Buchanan” came into their lives, is further damaged.  And yet they love one another, deeply, no one questions that, and there’s the rub.  The anger and love are warped and woven into one another so tightly that what poisons their bond also strengthens it.


***


And so it is with her best friends, with her mentor, with everyone who comes within her circle. Violence begets violence. It stains and spoils everything it touches; it cannot be put back into a tidy little box, locked up and tossed away.  We can atone for it but we cannot undo it.


***


But this a fictional story and in fiction, unlike real life, there must be some catharsis for the viewer, a chance to release the anxieties the story has provoked, to relax and breathe again. And so it is for the characters themselves, or at least it seems at the moment.  The episode ends happily, one might say conventionally, enough. More dramatically than the story of girl with the bayonet, perhaps (real life has no resolutions, remember); but Buffy and her mother come to an uneasy, unspoken peace on the back porch, their home (women’s space) reclaimed, and they can breathe again, for a time. Rupert Giles and Jenny Calender share a passionate kiss for the first time, Xander and Cordelia giggle while Buffy averts her eyes. It’s an ending worthy of Shakespearean comedy: All’s well that ends well.

Except, of course, that we’ve seen the entire series, and we know too much. The moments that made us smile and cheer when we first watched are painful now. (Not as painful as the memory of that bayonet and all it represented, but certainly poignant.) The characters onscreen have the luxury of perpetual innocence; they can’t know yet that Buffy will hesitate to kill her lover and it will cost Jenny her life, and Giles his only chance at love; that Buffy will eventually run a sword through her lover’s heart. The truth of Buffy’s calling will be forced upon Joyce at the worst possible hour and their relationship will be very nearly destroyed.


***


Much has been made of Buffy’s “daddy issues”,  at the cost of the complex mother/daughter relationship, and so scholars and fandom inadvertently repeat the sins of Ted Buchanan, and of the Watchers Council.  We forget, dismiss or overlook the fact that it always comes back to this: the love between a girl trying to grow up in an uncertain and frightening world, and a lonely mother so deeply in denial she cannot see what’s in plain sight before her eyes.


***


And Ted’s fingerprints (do robots have fingerprints?) can be found in the final hours of Buffy’s story when Giles and “General Buffy” and their friends represent the last vestigal traces of the WC, haunted by ghosts and locked into a closed and destructive paradigm. Violence begets violence.


***


In 2012, Buffy became my Hero - by which I mean my fictional hero, my avatar, as opposed to real life heros such as my mother.  (Make no mistake - in her capacity to love and endure, I consider my mother heroic.) My brothers grew up with Spiderman and Batman and Hans Solo; with countless tales of soldiers and kings throughout the ages. I had to wait until I was in my 40’s to find her.


***


Was it worth it the wait? Yes, it most certainly was. Yet I can’t help feel a little wistful that Buffy Summers wasn’t around in the 1970's or 1980’s; I certainly would have loved her then as I do now, if perhaps for different reasons. I can hope that in the years since that at least one other girl or boy, etched with anger and violence, haunted by dreams of murder that are so common as to be unremarkable, has felt just a little less frightened and alone because of her.

Comments

More thoughts, possibly some triggery *warning*

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

And so I find discussion that revolves around condemnation of Buffy to be kind of a hall of mirrors? This episode demonstrates a heroine breaking through that socialization. And then we all step in and police her response that saved her own life from someone - monster or human - who had just tried to kill her. And this is how we lose the gift of fear.

THIS. THIS. Exactly. That very "policing" is what motivated me; I'm often surprised and dismayed by how often and how harshly fandom judges Buffy - or any of the characters, including Xander (S5 Riley can bite me OTOH) - in Buffy's case, over the very things she condemns herself for. I think the show argues for compassion and that's so often withheld. And withholding it from her reflects a tendency to do so in the real world, with one another and ourselves. Which may be why I respond so strongly - that is, I can express the compassion and outrage for Buffy - or for another person - that I can't give myself.

I'm having some very thinky-thoughts today about some interesting but very complicated correlations between The Pack, Ted, and SR that I'm still sussing out (at the risk of upsetting anyone).

********************POSSIBLY TRIGGERY DISCUSSION, MENTION OF AR************************************************************

For one thing, fandom doesn't seem too put out when she kills a human (the zookeeper) in defense of others but specifically to save victimized males (Xander, who has fallen under the spell, and implicitly Jonathan who is terrorized and bullied.) Protecting herself in her own home from acquaintances, specifically lovers (Joyce's and her own, respectively - which is very true to RL dynamics) is another matter; in both instances, at least some of the blame is pinned on Buffy for her failures to "hold back" to behave properly, to reign in her anger etc. The perpetrator's perspective is privileged over her's.

Where it gets really tricksy - and wonky - is that, IMHO, the privileging in Ted comes mostly from outside the story (fandom interpretation - the parallel with Thelma and Louise is key here); whereas with the SR, the perpetrator's perspective is also privileged both inside and outside the story, in ways the writers may or may not have intended.
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[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

You've gone down into the dark tangle of issues surrounding this episode, and shone a searing light through that it illuminates everything with a vivid, vital clarity.

*faints*

I'm absolutely speechless, honestly - and honored, truly.

violence begetting violence and the Buffy/Joyce relationship - all of these themes have set my head a-buzzing

Now that you're doing your own rewatch I'm looking forward to some more meta from you *pretty please?* But doing this has set my own head "a-buzzing"; I feel like this has unlocked some sort of key to me, another way of viewing the series (not what I want to see, but what's there in front of me) and WHY Buffy matters to me in a way I hadn't quite understood before; and answers my own question, what do I have to bring to this fandom that no one else has? Myself.

You've told this with such elegance and emotional truth. Thank you so much for sharing.

I've been in awe of your writing since I discovered them last year (as you know); for the incisiveness of both your insights and your prose, so this - again, I'm speechless and honored.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Do you "do" hugs? 'cause here's one from me; I'm so pleased you found something of value here! I was rather anxious about your reaction, so it's a huge, huge compliment.

love the description of the episode's ending as "Shakespearean comedy" -- everyone is happy, and Buffy's surrogate father gets himself a partner Buffy likes, but who is *still* going to 'betray' Buffy (depending on how you read Jenny's not saying what little she knows), and who is then going to die.

That Shakepearean comedy phrase just came out of nowhere as i was typing - or so it feels - but watching this episode again, and watching that ending shot? FUCKING FLOORED ME. I still tear up every time I look at the screencap. Because I was so thrilled that they were finally getting together, I wanted that for Giles, and I loved Jenny, a smart, sexy, mature woman; but rewatching it feels so different; as with the moment in IRYJ (which is underrated, people! *shakes head*), when Giles asks Jenny "Who are you?" CHILLS when I rewatch it.

That's part of the beauty of the series, how much gets flipped on its head; how much "there" is "there". And yet there are certain constants that keep it anchored as well. (I'll never NOT have sympathy for Buffy defending herself in her own home from someone who is attacking her. That's non-negotiable for me, as you can guess.)

I think that when it comes to Buffy-Joyce stories, this and "Dead Man's Party" are in a similar category -- in that both episodes have an intruder come into the Buffy-Joyce dynamic to shake it up. In DMP, it's Pat who comes in and who eventually has to be slain.

Oh yes! I love this! And as with Ted, one event in particular (in this case, the SG chastising Buffy) is the event that completely pulls focus in most discussions, until that's all we can see. (Rather like memories of the Angel arc in S2 can make us forget that there was more to the season than that.)

I expressed some (rather newly-forming thoughts) to pocochina above re: the contrast to The Pack and fandom not being bothered with the death of a human in part because Buffy does it in order to save a male character (Xander); flipping that, is it possible that Pat's death is uncontroversial (in contrast to Ted) because of her gender? I'm speaking of fandom discussions here, mainly. I don't think it's intentional sexism but rather, unconscious conditioning? Which is exactly the sort of "programming" that Robot Ted represents?

But she was also the only friend her mother had.

I recall being happy at first to see that Joyce had a friend; I welcomed any hints that she had a life beyond being a plot device or more specifically "Mom", and was a little dismayed that Pat was very quickly cued as that divisive wedge? I had actually felt the same about Ted initially ("Buffy give the guy a chance") until his threats. And this is directly linked to my own experience of growing up very very aware of my mom's isolation and loneliness, which I think she still tries to fill with her work and her grandkids. I wanted her to have a life of her own, so Joyce became sort of the avatar upon which I projected my hopes. But I don't think I'm just projecting? And, Buffy and Joyce have so much in common (as do Buffy and Giles), and those commonalities create bonds but also unbridgeable distances.

It's hard to know when those threats are to one's parent, and when they are threats to 'you'.

SPOT-ON. And when you're still a dependent in your parents' (guardians) home, there really is NO separation. Not just in the psychological "my mother/myself" sort of way, but in actual physical fact.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I sometimes do hugs but am usually awkward about it.

I quite like I Robot You Jane and in addition to Giles/Jenny there is a *lot* there that resonates with Willow's arc. I guess one of these days I will have to post about that.

And yes, awwww re: Giles/Jenny.

I expressed some (rather newly-forming thoughts) to pocochina above re: the contrast to The Pack and fandom not being bothered with the death of a human in part because Buffy does it in order to save a male character (Xander); flipping that, is it possible that Pat's death is uncontroversial (in contrast to Ted) because of her gender? I'm speaking of fandom discussions here, mainly. I don't think it's intentional sexism but rather, unconscious conditioning? Which is exactly the sort of "programming" that Robot Ted represents?

That's not a bad point. I think that the biggest determining factor in-universe, IMHO, is a matter of the extent to which the supernatural was in play. When Buffy killed Pat, she was fully possessed by the zombie mask and there wasn't evidence it could come off; when Buffy threw the zookeeper into the cage, he had a bunch of hyena spirits already inside his body.

A somewhat similar rule follows the other instances of humans dying that play out as somewhat okay/normal -- the coach dying in "Go Fish" because he is attacked by the fishmonsters he created, the Knights of Byzantium who are trying to kill Dawn because of the Key, are clearly marked as being in fantasy plots with fantasy goals, even they are themselves human. Caleb seems to be human-ish but has the spirit of the First amping up his kill-power.

We know, at the episode's end, that Ted was a robot -- but we didn't know that when Buffy fought him. Additionally, Buffy didn't consciously know that when she hit him. Now -- it is up for debate how much Buffy knew subconsciously that Ted was not human or was a supernaturally enhanced human. I tend to think that she didn't really know, though Ted was really strong and that pinged something on her radar.

I do think that it matters that Buffy was protecting Xander in The Pack -- but I think fandom feels similarly about Buffy killing the Knights of Byzantium to protect Dawn, so I am not sure I think there are gender issues in play on that particular point, though it's not impossible.

I recall being happy at first to see that Joyce had a friend; I welcomed any hints that she had a life beyond being a plot device or more specifically "Mom", and was a little dismayed that Pat was very quickly cued as that divisive wedge? I had actually felt the same about Ted initially ("Buffy give the guy a chance") until his threats. And this is directly linked to my own experience of growing up very very aware of my mom's isolation and loneliness, which I think she still tries to fill with her work and her grandkids. I wanted her to have a life of her own, so Joyce became sort of the avatar upon which I projected my hopes. But I don't think I'm just projecting? And, Buffy and Joyce have so much in common (as do Buffy and Giles), and those commonalities create bonds but also unbridgeable distances.

One of the unintentionally saddest scenes in the show is when, in Fear Itself, Joyce talks about how when she came to Sunnydale she didn't have any friends, but now she has a wide circle of friends. It is sad because it is so unconvincing, based on what we see throughout the rest of the series. I think that the line was meant to be played straight, but it just reads to me as Joyce outright lying to Buffy in order to encourage Buffy to think that things are going to get better for her, which is heartbreaking. Well -- that is when I don't feel like laughing because the line seems so disjoint with everything else.

SPOT-ON. And when you're still a dependent in your parents' (guardians) home, there really is NO separation. Not just in the psychological "my mother/myself" sort of way, but in actual physical fact.

Yes. Exactly, very much so.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I sometimes do hugs but am usually awkward about it.

Ah that's all right - have a cookie instead?

I quite like I Robot You Jane and in addition to Giles/Jenny there is a *lot* there that resonates with Willow's arc. I guess one of these days I will have to post about that.

DO! I'm sure it will be splendid. It's one of those episodes that fandom (by which I mean mainstream fandom at the AV Club when I first started watching the show) swore up and down was "one of the worst" episodes and I thought, wait, what? I enjoyed that! I honestly don't get the hate. Because the technology is outdated? Doesn't bother me, and it's fun seeing the old-style scanner. Because of the aura of "evil" it lends the internet? Well, that was a huge concern at the time culturally (i.e. the movie "The 'Net"), and still very true in this day and age. IRYJ was the first episode where I was literally, viscerally frightened for Willow while I watched it, that she would be victimized by the demon. Watching (or rewatching) early episodes and the way Xander unthinkingly treats her, and how much she wants to be loved and appreciated - who doesn't want that? It's completely universal. But Willow seemed so naive up to that point, I was afraid of what would happen - and then, she listens to her gut regarding Moloch's intentions, backs away and turns off the computer. Yay Willow! Not a total damsel after all. So, yes, much love for that.

Besides - the introduction of Jenny Calender! Intelligent, gorgeous, confident in her sexuality, complicated in ways we couldn't predict yet, the show (and the characters) could have used more mature female characters like her, Willow's mentor plus it makes me CRY, damn it, when I think of what Giles lost, Jenny f-ing Calender! And when, how, is that "elderly Dutch chat room" conversation not funny?

Haters, get the hell out of my library! (This fandom sometimes....)

I think that the biggest determining factor in-universe, IMHO, is a matter of the extent to which the supernatural was in play.

Good point, sir. I think my concerns had specifically to do with fandom responses more so than in-show treatment, but I may not have communicated that clearly, as a lot of these things are still very embryonic in my head.

the coach dying in "Go Fish" because he is attacked by the fishmonsters he created, the Knights of Byzantium who are trying to kill Dawn because of the Key,

Actually, I got the impression that those are also two very controversial instances, in various parts of fandom I've visited or interacted with. Perhaps for similar reasons as Ted, because of certain ambiguities. In the case of Go Fish, it's less that the coach dies than Buffy's odd, ambiguous double entendre "sure do love their coach" (love as in "love eating their meal" or as in "having sex with"?) which is meant to be funny but comes off as possibly homophobic or at least unpleasant in ways I don't think the writers intended.

And I'm sure you've read lostboy_lj's meta about the Knights Who Say Key, as you know; he sees it as very deliberate, another link in the chain of Buffy's growing disconnection with her own humanity, rather than a neat 'action movie' moment. I've seen discussions regarding that elsewhere, very worked up that Buffy killed a human being. The ambiguity comes in the lack of clarity as to who these people really are, or maybe I need to rewatch? A lot of people seem confused as to whether they are human or not, but it upsets some people that she kills a man. Which brings me back to "Ted"; I admit, conditioned as I am by pop culture, I saw that moment in light of "action movie", much like all the fights with vampires and demons, something I barely noticed at all and as far as I was concerned, Buffy was defending herself, Dawn and her friends. Collateral damage. Does fandom notice this moment in a way they wouldn't if Buffy were a male action hero (how many humans did Rambo kill? Just checking), or is lostboy right, that we're supposed to be aware of it, that it's actually a critique, more or less, of action movie tropes (and my own willingness to cheer Buffy on in that moment?)

You give me SOOO many THOUGHTS and FEELINGS!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Ted was really strong and that pinged something on her radar.

Agreed. Emmie and pocochina have already expressed this idea quite well, but you know that. Buffy realized that he was stronger than a normal man should be and had to up her game; combine that with the heightened emotions of defending herself against a man who has threatened her and tried to terrorize her psychologically, hits her twice and doesn't respond to her blows as a normal man would, I'm 100% ok with her not then stepping back and saying, "Whoa, what's going on here, exactly? Are you, like, some kind of robot? Can we talk about this?" or "I'm going to take a step back and revisit my tactical strategy, ok with you?"

Because that wasn't going to happen here, and doesn't in RL, not in the heat of the moment. That's part of the abuse dynamic, as opposed to someone who is able to say, "Wow, I'm starting to get angry here, I'd better go for a walk before I hurt someone" or "I don't have the right to corner someone and frighten them, that is not cool".

I'm NOT saying that you are saying that, btw, quite the contrary! But I think there are a lot of people who have a very abstract idea of how someone in the situation (in this case, Buffy) "should" behave; and that very much keys in to the messages that have conditioned people such as myself that it's not ok to not protect themselves from abusers or to even speak out, because our perceptions that we are in danger are "wrong" and we're not "really" being abused.

One of the unintentionally saddest scenes in the show is when, in Fear Itself, Joyce talks about how when she came to Sunnydale she didn't have any friends, but now she has a wide circle of friends. It is sad because it is so unconvincing, based on what we see throughout the rest of the series. I think that the line was meant to be played straight, but it just reads to me as Joyce outright lying to Buffy in order to encourage Buffy to think that things are going to get better for her, which is heartbreaking. Well -- that is when I don't feel like laughing because the line seems so disjoint with everything else.

THIS, 100%!! I heard that line as well and wondered, wait, what? We haven't seen the evidence. It reminds me SO much of my mom's intense loneliness and isolation, her untreated depression, which she masks in public behind a cheery, gregarious false front (the opposite of the dark demon mask). There was work and home and taking care of husband and kids and little else. I wish that she had a circle of friends to chat with, have coffee with. As a teenager I was her best friend oftentimes, heard her confessions in dark hours; which makes me pretty well equipped to listen to other people but it was hard then. Her loneliness and isolation started in childhood, and is difficult to overcome if you don't know how to do so. I see it in my mom still today and in my S.O.; myself to a lesser degree.

Going back to the 'verse itself, it's tricky for the reasons you mention. Maggie is right when she said that Joyce gets used as a plot device most of the time; they don't bother to build a convincing life for her beyond being "mom". And that's something that our culture does with mothers, ignores them, and I wanted them to explore it here, there was opportunity to do so. They actually end up doing so more through Buffy in S6, which is probably wasn't deliberate from the get-go but I'm starting to come around to the idea that it works: the idealization of your parent and the world vs learning the hard truths of surviving as an adult yourself.

Whatever the writers' conscious intentions, Joyce has a pattern of covering the truth to avoid unpleasantness, via denial, delaying tactics, silence or soft language. School Hard: "I don't want to be disappointed"; FFL: "Oh, I was hoping to put this off. but...I'm staying overnight at the hospital for observation. I'm getting a CAT scan." (Um, it's already nighttime, how much later was she intending to put it off?)

I think that there's a lot more of Joyce in Buffy than fandom generally acknowledges: "And why I froze, not one among them knows / And never can be told" Heartbreaking, indeed.

[elisi]

This is amazing, thank you so much for sharing. <3

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Thanks for stopping by hon, I'm glad you liked it.

[sum1-different.livejournal.com]

RE all this Joyce discussion going on in the comments section, I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not very fond of of Joyce. It starts out with the fact that I totally can't buy Christine Sutherland as SMG's mother. Physical appearance, the feel of her acting, etc -there's no way these two people could be that closely related. So to me she's always been Buffy's FAKe mother. Then there's the fact that I don't much like Sutherland's performance. I find it bland, flat and boring. Add in the writing, which makes Joyce dumb, insensitive and sometimes as self-righteous as the odious Xander, and you have a character I feel is not worthy of being Buffy's mother. In some episodes she really grates on me, like when she, Willow and Xander gang up on Buffy in public at the party after Buffy's just come back at the beginning of season 3. But worst of all, what I'll never forgive, is how she threw Buffy out of the house at the end of season 2. For personal reasons that's something I react to strongly when I see it onscreen. I care ( a lot) about Buffy's bond with Dawn, a character I'm very fond of, but not Buffy's bond with Joyce, who mistreats her once too often for my liking and strikes me as a rather blank character. Actually, her treatment of Dawn, particularly after she finds out what Dawn is, is one of the few things I like about her, along with how she's one of the few people to accept Spike (her scenes with Spike are very funny). As I said, I don't really buy Joyce as Buffy's mother. I think Joss deliberately wrote Joyce as stupid and insenstive to serve the plot and I think it was a bad choice. As for male relationships on the show, don't forget the short shrift Buffy's father gets. I think the contrast between the treatment of Buffy's relationship with Giles and her relationship with Joyce has a lot to do with Giles being one of the vampire slaying team and central to her work, while Joyce isn't. I think there's more substance to the portrayal of the Giles relationship than the Joyce one, because he's a better character than Joyce, better acted, not a sort of stereotyped doesn't-get-it parent (though there are certainly things he doesn't get). He's certainly not without faults. At times I hate him, including for most of season 7, and I'm never as enthusiastic about him as I am about characters like Buffy, Dawn, Spike, Tara, Oz and Dru, but ASH has very considerable acting abilities that he's demonstrated in various shows and I haven't seen the like from Sutherland on Buffy. To be fair to her, I think she just delivered what Joss wanted. I think he wanted Joyce to be a fairly limited character. She's certainly not the model mom some people make her out to be.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Thank you for commenting! If I may ask a favor - in future would you mind breaking longer comments down into paragraphs? I have a lot of trouble reading long chunks of text online because of my eyes (even glasses don't help) things tend to blur together.

Interesting thoughts, I'll have to ponder and answer when my brain is rested and I'm more coherent. Thanks again for "digging up" these old posts.

[sum1-different.livejournal.com]

["in future would you mind breaking longer comments down into paragraphs?"]

I'll try to, but I can't guarantee I'll remember.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I didn't require a guarantee, but if you do remember the effort will be greatly appreciated. ;)

[sum1-different.livejournal.com]

I'll try. :)

[clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com]

This is silencing. I'm speechless.

You've written this with the raw emotion that only someone who's felt this - been here - can evoke. You've done it beautifully.

This is Joyce, and Buffy, and this is me and my mother and this is love. And it's family, and it's perfection. The resonance this one, often belittled and ignored episode throughout not only the series, but the character's (and viewers) lives is stunning, and something I've never considered before.

Though, the first, IMMEDIATE thing that sprang to mind was that flash, in the end of Chosen, where that girl stands up and catches the hand raised to hit her.

That's the little girl with the shotgun.

That's Buffy.

That's my friend, who's no longer with us.

And that girl is ready to stand up.

we know too much

This is almost the whole series to me. I can't watch it with those innocent, blissfully innocent eyes ever again. I can't see Giles and Jenny kiss without seeing Angelus snap her neck, I can't watch Willow and Tara make up without hearing "Your shirt" and the sound of a body hitting the ground. But, I can watch Buffy and Joyce hug, again and again (Anne, in particular, springs to mind), knowing that that's love. Sure, the world will cave in, the worst will come to pass. But that love, no matter how skewed and torn and bloodied it may become, will never diminish.

Thank you, my dear. This was wonderful, and painful, and true.

Round 10 Results are In: Check it out and Celebrate with Us!

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

User spankedbyspike referenced to your post from Round 10 Results are In: Check it out and Celebrate with Us! (http://wicked-awards.livejournal.com/37238.html) saying: [...] by Runner Up: Buffy the Vampire Slayer 2x11 Ted [...]

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

violent acts committed by women are still considered shocking. As I read this line I immediately thought of Thelma and Louise and how men, who watch all kinds of movie where cars and trucks are blown up, totally freaked when the two women blew up that truck. And then you mentioned Thelma and Louise; I have to admit “Ted” is one of my least favorite episodes so I'd forgotten they watched that movie at the end, but it's a great touch.

My brothers grew up with Spiderman and Batman and Hans Solo; with countless tales of soldiers and kings throughout the ages. I had to wait until I was in my 40’s to find her. Awwwww. *hug?*

As I was reading through the comments I started to wonder about parallels between Ted's trying to kill Buffy and Spike trying to rape her. I honestly don't know the show well enough to form the kind of coherent comments you do but I have flashes of violence: Ted and Buffy, Spike and Buffy, Xander as the hyena, the zoo guy with the knife at Willow's throat. Now how about female physical violence. I don't believe or recall that we ever see Joyce being physically violent. Willow almost destroyed the world with magic. There's Buffy attacking Ted (justified) and also Spike after being pulled out of heaven. Faith killing the assistant Mayor. Buffy (in Faith's body) getting out of the hands of the Council guys. So male power can express itself in unjustified physical violence while female power can express itself (more often) in justified violence (if you're superpowered) or magic. That reflects what society allows. I recall reading about an African women, feeling powerless within her home life, who took up magic and became a medicine woman as a way to have her own power base. Of course even justified violence isn't “allowed” for women.

Once when I was at a womens' martial art's conference and was walking between classes, a group of us heard a scream. It was something of a city layout, Chicago I think. The black belt women were looking around, obviously thinking about stepping in if they could figure out what was going on. For all that male martial artists use their skills for “good” in the movies, I'm not sure how many men would react the same way.

Wow. Okay. I don't know where all that came from. Anyway I'd be interested on your thoughts about who is allowed to use what kind of violence or power on the show or in real life.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Lucy you've SILENCED me! Your comments are so - elegant, succinct, absolutely to the point and not a single word wasted. And you've reminded me all over again why I wrote this meta: to speak up. Silence doesn't always equal death but it's always deadening to the soul.

When I was a girl, there was no internet, no one outside I could talk to - and it rarely occurred to me. We just didn't speak up about such things. I can identify with Buffy (and the Scoobies') insularity on that point.

This is Joyce, and Buffy, and this is me and my mother and this is love. And it's family, and it's perfection.

One of the reasons I identify with the show is the Buffy and Joyce relationship, but on a wider scale, the messiness of it. the lack of "perfect" relationships. I've seen people who claim that Joyce is a "good mother" and others who think she's a bad mother. My opinion is somewhere in between: she's both, she's neither, she's human and thus imperfect. They really didn't give her enough screentime IMO; I wanted to see more of their dynamic - in part because of my own relationship with my mom (I was very "bonded" to her growing up - I was probably her confidante and best friend many times, and the violence in the home forced us to band together even while it damaged us.)

But as with tara, when Joyce steps forward she shines; which isn't about whether I like or dislike her actions, btw.

I had planned on doing another episode for the 'fest; this one wasn't even on my radar(I watched once and forgot it); but some general fandom interpretations really bothered me when I came across them so I watched this again and it blew me away. There is just so much "there there" and especially in light of what's to come. It felt like a throw-away originally when it's nothing of the kind.

That scene in the kitchen - if Buffy had been able to tell her mother the truth, would it have changed anything? Maybe not.

where that girl stands up and catches the hand raised to hit her. That's the little girl with the shotgun. That's Buffy. That's my friend, who's no longer with us. And that girl is ready to stand up.

Crying now. Just so much this - everything. And I am terribly sorry to hear about your friend, although I know that's - insufficient. You've reminded me how lucky we were, in retrospect - someone could have been maimed, killed, injured; and that fear is part of what keeps us trapped.

And yes to everything else, 100%. I've watched Passions once and never again; I can't do it. The image of Tara dying makes me cry, makes me angry over and over, and it's hard to write about her in a happy tone when that is always in the back of my mind. But I watch her in WAY,TR,DT and OAFA over and over again as if I could hold onto her somehow.

Anne, in particular, springs to mind), knowing that that's love.

That is one of my favorite images from the entire series. I had meant to use it in my Joyce, Buffy, Dawn picspam post but didn't http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/19553.html But I will eventually. Bargaining and Anne are my favorite season openers and the parallels between those two eps is amazing: buffy in Hell, literally and figuratively; the gulf in tone and effect between Buffy and Joyce embracing at the end vs Buffy embraced by Dawn at the end. But love is still at the core in both instances despite trauma and damage.

Thank you for reading it.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

You bring up some really interesting points here! I have actually thought about the patterns a bit but I won't be able to really answer this properly until after the weekend.

I think though that what you are saying (about RL violence more than the show itself) is very similar to what beer_good_foamy said abovethread? http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/13017.html?thread=205529#t205529

I don't believe or recall that we ever see Joyce being physically violent.

School Hard, sweetie "get the HELL away from my daughter!" http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/16066.html
And Gingerbread - Willow and Buffy are nearly burnt to death by their mothers. Granted, Sheila and Joyce are under the influence of a spell, but how much of that is their internalized resentment that's been there under the surface all along? (Particularly in Joyce's case.)

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten Joyce attacking Spike in "School Hard", but that falls under the women getting violent only to defend themselves category. Did I make that a category? Possibly not because it isn't necessarily considered acceptable for a woman to use violence to defend herself.

Oh yeah, I totally get internalized resentment. Maybe that's part of the appeal of a mob, a chance to get violent in an approved (at least by the group if not wider society) manner. Have you ever read Tiptree's The Screwfly Solution? Not female violence, the idea of in-group approved violence reminded me of it.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

YOu may have mentioned that as a category? LIke I said, I'll need to really answer more completely after the weekend.

The thing about self-defense? I would think that would be the one area where violent acts by women are considered "acceptable". The fact that people react so strongly against even that is what initially spurred this meta. A lot of fans take buffy to task and say she "abused her power". (I really recommend all of angeria's comments which I linked to up top of the meta.)
And I'm sorry, but - that is exactly the kind of mindset that has kept victims of domestic violence trapped, the notion that they do not have the right to fight back and defend themselves. It's only ok if it's a stranger who jumps out of the bushes?

In college my friends and I talked about the fact that in our culture, anger is the only emotion that men have been allowed to display and the only one that women haven't been allowed to express. And I think the idea of women not being able to fight back is an extension of this somehow? I'll have to think about it.

Have you ever read Tiptree's The Screwfly Solution? Not female violence, the idea of in-group approved violence reminded me of it.

No but I'll check it out! You just reminded me, though, of the fact that we see "mob mentality" at least three times on btvs, directed against Buffy: Gingerbread, Dead Man's Party as well as Empty Places. And mob mentality is such a seductive trap; it's the illusion of power without actual responsibility. (hey, it wasn't me...)

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

No rush. It's not like I'm trying to give you stuff to do and say I need it immediately. ;-) You either think thing through and/or express them better than I do.

Well, if victims of domestic violence don't have the right to defend themselves than I'd say that violence by women isn't considered acceptable as self-defense. Or perhaps it's only okay when women defend themselves against strangers.

Ah yes, men are allowed to be angry, women depressed. Actually my therapist tells me that anger covers a deeper wound, a hurt, a sadness.

Diffused responsibility. Interesting concept. No one is responsible if the group is. That reminds me of Emperor Norton who once dispersed a mob by reciting the Lord's Prayer over and over again. This would have been around the time of the Civil War (if I have the time right). One man, invoking what would have been an agreed upon "higher authority" at the time to take on a crowd.

[lookingforoctober (from livejournal.com)]

Well, it turns out that I hadn't read this.

Wow. Very powerfully written.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much for reading, and the kind compliment! I'm pleased with it, but it came from a rather singular place; sometimes anger CAN be turned into something constructive.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Ok let's see if I can finally get back to all of your comments here: women and violence?
So male power can express itself in unjustified physical violence while female power can express itself (more often) in justified violence (if you're superpowered) or magic.

I started typing a long response to this paragraph until I realized that you had already summed up my thoughts on the subject. Violent acts by women are seen as soul-destroying unless the woman is soulless (Drusilla - who kills another woman, Kendra); is directed at a non-human Big Bad/Demon; or in self-defense and in the line of duty with human MOTW we're not supposed to care about (S1 and S2: The Pack, Go Fish etc.) And even then, violence is slowly eroding Buffy's soul no matter how necessary; it's a cumulative effect.Willow's emotions take over reason Willow (Tough Love and Dark Willow) and she goes off either half-cocked or insane with rage and grief and in either case isn't really "in control" of herself and needs to be "tamed" in Grave by Giles and Xander. Faith and Buffy (later Dana on AtS) both succumb to depression or near-madness; Dru is driven mad by Angel. Anya is the only formerly-superpowered character or demon at the end who is not allowed to reclaim her powers "for good" and reintegrate her "shadow self"; while Spike HAS to reclaim his capacity for violence albeit 'for good' (and self-defense in LMPTM.)

Of course even justified violence isn't “allowed” for women.

My Ted meta was inspired by the fact that fandom focuses on "Buffy was out of control and abused her Slayer powers" and not "Buffy was defending herself and her mom from someone who had been psychologically terrorizing her and had just tried to kill her. The Thelma and Louise connection was something I caught only on rewatch and I really think it was accidental in that I doubt the writers knew the effect it would have in fandom? OTOH you can't understand her stance in Consequences, Dead Things, Sanctuary (AtS) and Villains without that episode.

Actually my therapist tells me that anger covers a deeper wound, a hurt, a sadness.

There's more to it than that IMO. In the Dance of Anger Dr. Harriet Lehrner wrote that "anger is a signal and worth listening to"; that it can be a signal that we are being treated unfairly, of injustice, etc; not just in the past as "a deeper wound" implies but right here and now. It does not tell us, she points out, how to react to a situation or what the solution is, only that there is something amiss. The way women have most often dealt with anger of course is to swallow it, turning into that "deeper wound" into depression and sadness. It's interesting that Buffy often expresses anger in the show but is considered a "bitch" and "too masculine" in fandom; but she very often swallows it, or breaks into tears in a very "feminine" fashion (Dead Man's Party, Empty Places, all of S6.)



Have you ever read Tiptree's The Screwfly Solution? Not female violence, the idea of in-group approved violence reminded me of it.

I tried and couldn't get through it - I couldn't tell what was what, when are we with the man in the room, when are we reading the letter. Things like italics etc would have helped greatly; readability is a thing with me.

On the subject though of group-approved violence and the banality of evil have you read Shirley Jackson's 1948 classic "The Lottery"? http://sites.middlebury.edu/individualandthesociety/files/2010/09/jackson_lottery.pdf
It was written in the context of the end of WW2 and Hitler's final solution, and the Communist witch hunts in America, but there are so many other examples that it's impossible to count.

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

she goes off either half-cocked or insane with rage and grief and in either case isn't really "in control" of herself and needs to be "tamed" in Grave by Giles. Oh, yes, of course, because female == unreliable emotion while male == reason and discipline.

On Anya and her powers, didn't she have some magic BEFORE she became a demon? I distinctly remember a scene where her ex is running around as a troll and that demony guy is trying to recruit her. Turning someone into a troll seems pretty powerful to me. Why wouldn't she still have that?

"anger is a signal and worth listening to". That makes so much sense. I had decided to invite Dad for Thanksgiving in therapy session, but I wanted to think about it some more. The following Tuesday I was livid with rage. On Wednesday I went for a long walk in a park that almost always calms me deeply. That didn't happen so much but I did realize that I do not want to see Dad. He's just too mean. He may not intend to be so awful and he may not even realize it, but wow, he's just too much for me to want to put up with right now. Instead for the holidays he gets a letter explaining why I can't deal with him. Won't that be a nice treat?

Oh, of course, The Lottery is brilliant. That's an absolutely amazing story.