red_satin_doll | Canon-related questions for Buffyologists

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Canon-related questions for Buffyologists

There's a couple of items about Buffy Summers that I've seen in several fanfics and wondered if they were "canon" or "fanon" information. I don't trust my memory, especially when I've probably spent more hours at this point reading fanfiction than actually watching the show. (What that says about me I shudder to imagine.)

By "canon", I am of course referring to BtVS, seasons 1-7 only, not the comics (aka Get behind me, Satan!)

1) Is Buffy's given name "Buffy" or "Elizabeth"? I've read "Elizabeth Anne Summers" used in several fanfics and it feels like it might have been mentioned somewhere in S1-3 on the show, if at all?

Actually, I just wanted an excuse to post this screencap. But while you're here:

2) Does Buffy refer to herself in third person at any other point on the show except for Life Serial: "stupid Buffy" "freak Buffy"? A lot of stories have her refer to herself in this way, usually when she's berating herself, although generally not while drunk. (For someone who can't hold her liquor she seems to drink quite a lot of it in LS. Slayer metabolism, apparently.)

Also, she generally does so whilst kicking herself mentally over something regarding Spike, so do early season/Bangel 'ship writers have her referring to herself in this manner as well?

No, no further questions; I just love SMG in this episode so damn much I can hardly stand it. I mean - come on, Giles, how can you resist that face? Buttons and puppies are weeping in envy. Now do your duty to your Slayer and hand her the check without making her feel like it's an act of charity on your part.

I love Giles, I do. But damn it, he can be an ass sometimes.

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Her given name is Buffy and

velvetwhip is right that the confusion comes in because Buffy is also a nickname for stuck up Elizabeths. It goes Elizabeth ... Bethy ... Buffy ... if you want to trace how it happened at all. I still don't get it, but hey I don't make these things up. They are too strange even for me.

As for the third person thing ... she refers to herself in the third person in "The Prom" I believe. When she says "I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing." I can't remember if she says it elsewhere, but she doesn't do it to the point of being annoying.

*hugs and love*

My current *grrr* thing, although not technically fanon, is the love of all things hot chocolatey and tiny marshmallowy. IT WAS JUST THAT ONCE PEOPLE!!! (And if somebody can prove me wrong - for either Spike or the Summers family - well, excuse the shouty caps). It is so overused, it's almost enough to make me stop reading now. :P Unless it's a holiday fic, it drives me batty. Even then, it's close. And yes, I realize my reaction is way out of proportion to the innocuousness of it.

See, with that one, I go off on this whole thing about how many of the distinctive flavors of chocolate are only released when it melts in the mouth. And since vampires are room temperature, they're often not warm enough to melt chocolate (or not quickly, anyway.) So in order to enjoy the maximum yumminess of chocolate, Spike has to have it hot, or at least warm. Hence hot chocolate!

(Not that it makes sense to have him scarfing it every single fic, but. Rationales, I has them.)

I am adopting your rationales. Because Spike, hedonist that he is, could very well like that nice tasty hot chocolate. Also, it'll keep me from tossing the computer at the wall the next time I read about it. :)

(Also, I kinda picture Buffy covered in vanilla cream and peaches. ME LIKES)

Corrupter of innocent minds, you are. Besides - ice cream would be kind of uncomfortable Strawberries and whipped cream works nicely, even if it's sort of cliche. But, you didn't hear me say that.

Forgot the TR one, thanks! That's actually a fairly common phrase, and I'm sure it predates Buffy (I use it a lot, but more often in writing than in speech.)

But "note to self" isn't a reference to oneself in third person, as "Stupid Buffy" is; it's first person: note to myself, I need to remember this. So I'm still going with the "Buffy only referred to herself in third person once on the show and fandom has just run with it" theory.

is the love of all things hot chocolatey and tiny marshmallowy. IT WAS JUST THAT ONCE PEOPLE!!!

Is that a thing? I hadn't noticed outside of the occasional holiday fics. And I think on the show it was Joyce who made and offered it the one time on - I don't actually remember the ep or the season.

I do remember the one thing that Angel pigged out on in IWRY was chocolate ice cream, in bed with Buffy. (Hmm, maybe Kikimay was on to something upthread.)

So in order to enjoy the maximum yumminess of chocolate, Spike has to have it hot, or at least warm. Hence hot chocolate!

Works for me.

I have heard that the vanilla thing came about because in one early-season interview, SMG mentioned something about liking vanilla-scented bath products, and fandom latched on to that like a crazed latching thing.

Back to the fragrance thing, I just read SAFIDY by Rabid1st on EF, whom

spuffy_luvr rec'd to me; it's post NFA and a Shanshued Spike in Rome is having a hard time adjusting to his reduced human senses:
http://dark-solace.org/elysian/viewstory.php?sid=1392
Never again would he catch a signature scent on the air. Dawn, he remembered, smelled something like the taste of roasted sunflower seeds. Or rather that aroma lingered under the obligatory chemical camouflage of modern femininity. He certainly didn't miss gagging over nearly lethal combinations of sport deodorant and perfumed body wash. Chalk one up for the less sensitive nose; he could tolerate fragrance, even up close and personal.

Oh! I didn't know it was a common expression. I want to rewatch some episodes in S4. I'll let you know if I find something. So far I don't remember the third person as common for Buffy!

See, I don't like too much ice cream, while I love vanilla artigianal cream. Uh-uh, it's very good! Whipped cream works also well and peaches are juicy and tasty. Strawberries is the official taste of Willow! :D (Season Six) Ehehehe!

Very good point about The Prom, that sounds about right.

I just today noticed "Elizabeth" being used in some of those AU 19th century Spuffy fics, which makes sense.

That's a gorgeous icon btw did you make it.

Joyce offers hot chocolate, Spike perks up and asks her if she has any mini-marshmallows to go in it. So there's an implication that he likes it, or at least has had it often enough to have a preference for having it a certain way.

Which is a big difference between Spike and Angel; Angel is indifferent to food as a vampire, while Spike is on record as enjoying several things. OTOH, it's notable that when the old guy took over Angel's body in that one episode, he ate Mexican food and appeared to enjoy it, so I have a suspicion that a lot of Angel's food-indifference is psychological rather than based on a physical inability to taste things as a vampire.

Would this work in fotoflex?

I don't know - I haven't tried it, and I rather doubt it? I could try.

Fotoflexer is actually the program that Photobucket used to use for editing, until they adapted a new editing program this year - of course without warning anybody. Much like Netf***k and pretty much everything else online. (Customer service? What the hell is that?) I think it's pretty basic - has to be if I can master it - and it allowed me to do simple changes (see my default icon as an example) but also add text to an image, which I needed for a blog I write on.
http://fotoflexer.com/

The new system PB adopted is fancier, lots of "effects" and layers and stuff I don't find useful, but they probably work well for other folks. The problem of course was that with the old system, I had photo editing AND storage in one place; whereas now it's split into two. (I have most of my photos and stuff at the moment on an external drive, but I'm backing things up on PB again.)

BTW - I just friended you if that's ok? You and Gabrielle must be friends (I'm assuming) as I see you both of you write Willow-centric fic and unconventional pairings.

Edited 2013-01-02 23:54 (UTC)

No I didn't make it ...

valyssia made it. I do make icons from time to time, but I've never made a Buffy icon. If you want to snag it, just credit Val and I know she wouldn't mind.

I understand that historic AUs would probably need her to be named Elizabeth because Buffy back then was just a nickname. But in any modern piece it is just wrong.

I don't read Spuffy so I wouldn't notice those things. I've written one Spuffy fic and that was my intro in the BtVS fanfic and since then it has all been Spillow and Wangel and various other rare ships. I only really like Spuffy on the show. That is way more than enough for me. I don't like seeing them in romantic twists, they weren't a romantic pair. Buffy used Spike and then threw him away and then used him some more. I think the love there was all one-sided and rather obsessive and dark. I like that type of thing but all the Spuffy fics I see are romantic dribble that turns them into fools and that to me is just not them.

The point of that rant was to simply say ... I'll take your word for it because I'll never find out for myself because I don't read them.

By the bye ... I took the quote from "The Prom" straight from the transcripts from BuffyWorld. It is verbatim what she says to Angel when they see each other at the butcher's shop. I looked it up to be sure.

I'm the biggest Buffy nerd there is ... if you ever have a question about show canon ... so long as it occurs while the shows were on the air ... I pretty much know all. I didn't watch that many interviews, but I've been watching Buffy since the beginning and I never missed an episode. I've rewatched the series and Angel more times than I can remember and I know lines off by heart and quote them often. I know the show backward and forward. If I don't know the answer, I will before I get back to you, because it will bother me if I don't.

But despite my recent poll about Spuffy ethics ... I don't ship them really ... unless I am watching the show ... and then I can't get enough of that broken and messed up relationship. I love me some broken couples. Don't worry ... I'm getting help for this. ;P

*hugs and love*

vanilla artigianal cream

That's "homemade" in English, right? I used to make my own whipping cream but starting about ten years ago I noticed my throat would clog up when I ate any so I had to stop using it.

Strawberries is the official taste of Willow!

That was Rack who said it, wasn't it? In Wrecked? Ok, am I the only one who thought that Rack was sort of gross BUT the scene where he moves in on Willow seductively and then the close up when he whispers "you taste of strawberries" was actually kind of scary/sexy?

My partner and I used to use "strawberries" as a codeword/injoke for "making love" when we were first together. (I should be blushing right now. And I am.)

Edited 2013-01-03 00:00 (UTC)

Gabrielle and I are friends. She's a doll and writes some awesome fics!!!! If you like rarer pairs or Willow at all ... maybe you can check out some of my stuff. But only if you are into that sorta thing. I'm not pressuring you to read. But a forewarning ... some of my stuff is very strange ... not the norm ... off kilter kinda stuff really.

I'll friend you back!!!

*hugs and love*

My partner and I used to use "strawberries" as a codeword/injoke for "making love" when we were first together. (I should be blushing right now. And I am.)

Aaawwhh, that's sweet!
Thanks for the grammar advice! I feel so stupid when I make this mistakes! And, yes, I totally think that the scene with Rack was sexy. I mean, he was a creep, but that particular scene was all kind of sexy.

But maybe he can taste Mexican because is spicy and strong, while he has difficulties with more sweet tastes. Makes a little bit of sense? The psychological theory seems pretty accurate!
Spike and marshmallows! *w* We should totally make a topic about Buffyverse and Foodporn. Delicious!

Edited 2013-01-03 00:23 (UTC)

have a suspicion that a lot of Angel's food-indifference is psychological rather than based on a physical inability to taste things as a vampire.

I haven't seen that ep you're referring to, but that's an interesting point to ponder. Angel on btvs at least seems to be very much about self-abnegation; very dramatically so in the 100 years before he first saw Buffy, but even after that, his surroundings are very sparse and spartan, even though the artwork, and so forth imply sophistication, elegance and therefore a certain income level - and the same is true of his wardrobe on the show. Simple but not inexpensive. (HOW he makes his money before AtS is a whole 'nuther conversation.)

Whereas Spike seems to be coded as being lower-class financially compared to Angel (watches tv, smokes, drinks beer, dresses punk etc) but he does enjoy sensual pleasures like food, spices, cigarettes.Not unlike friends of mine (and myself, admittedly) who say, life is short and my budget is limited so why waste money on shitty beer, food etc?

If Angel's indifference is psychological as you say, that would make sense given that (from what I've seen in Becoming, so my knowledge is limited), he was a wastrel, the son of a monied family who frequented gambling dens and whorehouses, and constantly chased sensual pleasures? Whereas William came from an upper-middle class family, as far as I can tell from FFL/LMPTM (certainly a very comfortable middle-class existence) but I didn't get the impression of him as someone then who "indulged" himself, if that makes sense?

I wasn't really clear in the early seasons of Btvs with Angel if vamps couldn't taste food or were completely indifferent to it; I'm assuming that with Spike they made things up as they went along, sometimes just for the humor, sometimes to differentiate him from Angel. I think the comedy aspect played a big part of it at first (S4): "Don't I get a cookie?"

Oddly, I think on that level Buffy becomes more like on some level Angel as the show went on in terms of self-abnegation (denial of pleasure/self-care - somebody make her sit down and eat a sandwich already!), as well as the simplicity of her wardrobe, plain but not inexpensive looking. (Again, a whole 'nuther meta post.) I haven't seen enough of AtS to comment on how Angel evolves in that regard.

Stopping now....

Aaawwhh, that's sweet!

It was - we were in that honeymoon phase, and we used it with our best friends, another lesbian couple. And then one day several years later my sweetie said "I don't like to combine food and sex." WHAT??? That was the pin that popped my balloon.

Thanks for the grammar advice!
Grammar advice? You mean "homemade"? Oh that's not a mistake, I enjoy looking up unfamiliar words! Don't feel stupid - you enlarged my vocabulary.

that particular scene was all kind of sexy.

I think it was the close-up that did it, but also AH playing Willow as almost trembling, nervous and fascinated; and anyway Ally seems to have effortless chemistry with almost anyone she's onscreen with, even now in How I Met Your Mother, where it's often suggested that Lily is bi-curious if not bisexual. (Maybe she's just something of a free spirit in real life? She did play a character in American Pie, I've read, who used a flute in an *ahem* unconventional manner.)

We should totally make a topic about Buffyverse and Foodporn. Delicious!

Well it'd be a kind of short topic; the characters don't eat very often (on btvs anyway) given that we spend essentially seven years with them. As someone who loves to cook and eat I know I'm very aware of that. But hey, go for it! On some levels, Spike is the most food-oriented (i.e. pleasure-oriented) character on the show.

I've read an interesting essay/thesis on the Slayage Journal online identifying the consumption of bespelled/drugged foods in Ted and Band Candy by Joyce and/or Giles, as a metaphor for drug useage by their generation, leading to selfish pleasure and neglect of parental duties. (I don't agree with it 100% but it's interesting in light of the subject matter.)

Thanks! I'm trying to expand my reading habits (i.e., I'm burned out on "Spuffy" fics unless it's really superb stuff **sshhh!! don't tell anyone I said that!**) But I'm also trying (and mostly failing) to spend less time reading fanfic so I can, you know, write my own metas and actually get stuff done around the house. I feel like I'm turning into the fan equivalent of a pothead if I don't rein it in a bit! I do enjoy twisted, ironic, self-aware fics, meta fic, and really just WELL-WRITTEN stories with true-to-canon characterizations.

Your Willow/Spike icon is VERY pretty!

Edited 2013-01-03 00:58 (UTC)

I think I have another one of her icons on my harddrive somewhere, thanks. I actually have more icons than I have space for on my LJ (free account so I only get 15.)

I don't like seeing them in romantic twists, they weren't a romantic pair. Buffy used Spike and then threw him away and then used him some more. I think the love there was all one-sided and rather obsessive and dark. I like that type of thing but all the Spuffy fics I see are romantic dribble that turns them into fools and that to me is just not them.

Oh boy..

I'm going to agree to disagree a little - or maybe we don't really disagree at all except in terms of semantics? I loved S6, love Buffy and Spike in S6-7 for all it's darkness and pain and even moments of tenderness. I don't need them to be the "perfect romantic couple" that's not the point (I explain a bit more in my comments below, hopefully). but I will say that IMO the relationship is very much a mutually-abusive one and they are pretty equal on almost every level in that respect. He uses her (for sex, for companionship, for status, for protection, for money, for the thrill of it; to reach toward the light but not be alone in the dark); she uses him and around and around it goes. There is so much self-hate and delusion coming from both of them that almost anything I say of Buffy in that relationship is true of Spike as well. I like

the_royal_anna's term for them then, "identity hijack": "it's need bleeding into need..."

And I really do appreciate their journey in S7 more and more; what they have really doesn't match any cultural template for how a relationship "should" be, which is pretty true of RL I think. We get a lot of warped ideas about love and romance from our culture and mass media, which both Buffy and Spike carry around and it damages both of them terribly But maybe I like them best as friends, companions, and as two perfectly-matched warriors?

I hope I'm not coming off as defensive, BTW! I'm always happy to talk about late seasons but I know how fraught and sensitive it can be.

I don't ship them really ... unless I am watching the show ... and then I can't get enough of that broken and messed up relationship. I love me some broken couples. Don't worry ... I'm getting help for this. ;P

Eh, romance is overrated anyway. And "in love" is a phase, a chemical attraction; actual "love" on a deeper level to me is more interesting because it's genuine work, and it's not necessarily pretty. In fact, it rarely is.

It's interesting to me how a lot of "Spuffy" fics read like reworkings of the Bangel relationship and "forever/true love" with all the ribbons and bow; but then other people prefer evil Spike; conversely some Bangel fics (admittedly I've read very few) are as dark and twisted as Spuffy in S6 ever was. There are even people who 'ship "Bangelus". Ok, not my thing, but the point is, whatever I can find in one 'shipping faction I find in another. It's like the meta

spuffy_luvr linked to said, "people are all the same". And we want what we want. So we can disagree about our preferences but getting into arguements and wars over it seems silly. Besides, to me the point of the show is Buffy allowing herself to "love" (and I don't mean romantically necessarily; that included loving her friends and herself, and loving enough to let go); that she doesn't "need" a man in order to be strong or complete.

Thanks

rua1412 made it. I have 13 Spillow icons in total ... they are my OTP.

I have two fics that I think are pretty good character wise and story wise. If you don't mind your demons also being aliens and Spike and Willow trapped on alien planets from time to time, I just started writing a series Across the Universe that is a slow build on Willow/Spike. I have two stories written for it so far. The link takes you to the master post.

But there is my other WIP, Persona which I also think is good. The "pairing" there is Willow/Angel/Spike/Buffy ... there's a tiny bit of Spuffyness to it but there is a lot of Bangel and a lot of Wangel and some Spillow and more Willow/Angel/Spike than I know what to do with. HOWEVER, this is a really strange story and it is not everyone's cup of tea. This is a rewrite of an older fic of mine and the concept there is not overly popular. It is the trope of a bond ... but this one goes sideways and I will warn you that it gets confusing on who is talking when and the words we, us and they are used in very interesting ways. To put it bluntly, if you don't like the idea of a collective consciousness I suggest you skip it.

I have a few drabbles that are good. I'm especially proud of my Faith/Buffy drabble Mirror, Mirror. You can find the link in my sidebar.

If you like peek through your fingers dark there is Violazioni, but I warn you not to eat before reading ... it gets graphic and has been accused of being torture porn in places. I don't think I crossed the line but other people think I did. Not for the faint of heart. That is a Angel/Willow piece where characterizations are a bit different. I think I keep Willow as close to canon as I can get considering what I do to her. But Angel is way OOC. Link again in my sidebar if that interests you.

Basically the newer the better and my sidebar has it all and it isn't dated. But I just gave you everything that I think is at all good. The rest ... read at your own risk. Though to be fair I've been told that my biggest problem is patience. Most of my fics are rushed and summarized. I don't do that with the ones above as much.

Across the Universe is as true to canon as I could get it. Persona is my left hand turn into oncoming traffic, but you said you liked twisted, and Violazioni is as dark as it gets. All of those are long fics by the bye. Not one sitting stuff. But you are more than welcome to try what you will or skip what doesn't interest you. I won't be offended either way.

I just started a new fic that I'll be posting this month ... it is another long one and it is a Spillow BDSM love story set over season 6. There is a season plot as well that I think is rather interesting to boot.

By the way ... everything I do has to have a plot ... I don't write a lot of smut usually. The most smut I've written was in Bruises and that wasn't very well written. Skip it please.

Now I feel like I've gone on forever about myself and know nothing about you other than you like well written Spuffy. What else do you like?

*hugs and love*

Interesting subject indeed!
I don't know if I agree totally. I mean, Joyce seems very careless in the first seasons, watching so little for Buffy, but "the whole generation" thingy seems a bad generalization. Also, the parenting model changed. In Victorian/First decades of 900 time was much more severe and authoritarian while today we can talk with our parents in a different way. I don't think that this is negleting something. (I'm sorry, maybe I'm going widly Off Topic.)

About the foodporn: you know, I didn't mean it like how much they eat. They eat a little, especially Buffy. (Btw, there is a Tumblr "What Buffy eats" that shows images of the Slayer with the food in all the episodes and seasons. And Buffy eats a little.) I wanted to play a game of associations (For example Buffy= vanilla) since it seems popular to associate certain characters with particular tastes and flavors. I'm doing it tomorrow, tired now.
Spike should be covered in Nutella (The brand name of a chocolate hazelnut spread. Very delicious) And I'm totally serious about it! *grins*

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Canon-related questions for Buffyologists

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