red_satin_doll | Quick quick now!

Entry tags:

Quick quick now!

1) The deadline is tomorrow, Friday the 20th at midnight for both

otherworldlyric challenge #166 , "Easy Way Out" by Gotye, and

slayerstillness challenge 20 "Love Song for a Vampire. More entries are needed - and I'm sitting both of these out, so don't look at me. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the pretties this time around.

And just in case you're easily confusable - a.k.a. "moi" - OWL is the multifandom icontest where you have to use at least two consecutive words from the lyrics of the challenge song. SS is strictly Buffyverse (btvs/ats) and icons can have text or not. Also, SS is the one that opens the entry and voting threads after the winners have been announced. Which can be fun...or kinda awkward, depending. I actually kind of like it, but wait until an icon I'm sure is gonna win loses big time. Then we'll see what pennywhistle I'm tooting with.)

2) A little bird in fandom (thank you little bird!) informed me that my blog has been rec'd by "snowdropsandtigers" on tumblr.

"On a relevant—yet off-topic—note, it occurs to me that I want to recommend a blogger to follow, in case that might help and you don’t know of her. She’s on LJ and she’s very much a Buffy fan first and Spuffy shipper second, and gives love to the other characters too: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/ I’m kind of terrible and lurk much more than talk, but I’ve been reading her meta—and the meta she links to—for a while and find it all really lovely."

And I'm just - what do I say except THANK YOU? I don't know who they - who you - are, but I'm really incredibly flattered by your kind words. I would love to thank snowdropsandtigers (what a wonderful, evocative penname!) but I haven't a tumblr account so - THANK YOU SO MUCH, whoever you are.

And also, what they said about shipping is extremely relevant to my own thoughts of late:

"I’ve experienced that. Unfortunately, I’ve also experienced other fandoms being pretty much the same. The ones I’ve gotten into after getting into Buffy in 2005 do the same things frequently (ship wars; whitewashing characters, usually dudes; distorting characterization/valuing characters mainly for ships, especially with female characters; drama between the fans themselves.).....It burns one out."

That's pretty much the nutmeat of a meta I've been wanting to write on the subject so all I can say at the moment is - ME TOO. Or, WORD. (Is that even a "thing" anymore, that use of "word"? I don't know. You tell me.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm not usually this angry. I generally see the wars and the flame throwing and I laugh and stay out of it and engage with happy people and ship my ships and not really care.

But I lost FOUR ladies in three months.

That's unconscionable.

Any dialogue right now that is pro-males in a way that becomes anti-female, I'm not about it. I don't have the patience right now. I'm at my wits' end with loss this year. Too many female characters have died.

It's the overwhelming gender-centric pattern.
What makes me so frustrated is when I'm legitimately trying to have a constructive conversation - that places women first - and because of the negativity that these gender-centric patterns upheld in shipper spaces, no conversation can even begin.
So I'm sitting there, trying to talk about how awesome a relationship dynamic is and on one hand I have the shippers who yell "YES EVERYTHING IS PERFECT ISN'T IT WONDERFUL" and on the other hand the anti-shippers screaming "YES BUT THIS OTHER THING IS SO MUCH BETTER" and then in the middle those (like yourself) who just sigh and say: "ugh this is ugly I am so put off by fandom I don't want to talk about it" and THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION can't even begin. You can't talk about the problems or the good things or engage a conversation in fandom about very much of anything, without this dynamic lingering overhead. Either with shippers frustrated that you aren't defending every bad thing a male character has ever done - or because those in the middle are tired of the "love" that is splashed all over and they don't want to even think about how it COULD be interesting if looked at more interrogatively.

It's a completely toxic system that profits from stopping conversation and prioritizing DA MALE.

And no. I'm done. I don't want it in my fandom spaces anymore.

I think if fandom had an uprising and there were more female-centric conversations and people started prioritizing females, eventually TPTB would notice.

Women die in rapid rates on Supernatural and fandom cheers. Because how DARE a female come between Wincest or Destiel? SHOCKING AND APPALLING! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! It's not a 1:1 ratio. But shippers need to change their habits first. Because media is a long-term battle and if we change OUR dialogue, eventually the rest of the world will take note.

(Forever in mourning.)

But I lost FOUR ladies in three months.

That's unconscionable.

Yes it is. I've spent 40+ plus years watching horrible bullshit - and it's unconscionable that we're no better off than we were four decades ago in some respects.

But then again I watched Tara die only two years ago and I'm still in mourning. I refuse to watch AtS for that very reason. I will not watch them destroy Cordy and Fred. I finally had to turn off Bones this year - a silly bit of entertainment that happened to have three dynamic, ethnically and racially diverse professional women in the sciences, and focused on them in their careers - because they turned the female protagonist into a de facto moron. They didn't kill her but they broke her. And people are ok with that.

The fact that those ladies existed at all is something to celebrate. The fact that "fridging" is still considered ok as a "plot device" is horrifying.

and then in the middle those (like yourself) who just sigh and say: "ugh this is ugly I am so put off by fandom I don't want to talk about it" and THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION can't even begin.

I don't want to misunderstand you too fast - but I feel like I'm being somewhat misrepresented here. Certainly I've been called worst things - I've been labeled an "abuse apologist" because I love Buffy but ship Buffy and Spike in S7. I've been called a Willow hater because I dared question someone's position that Tara was partly responsible for Willow's treatment of her in S6. I've been told I'm an angry bitch and not angry enough.

But I'm not sure what you mean here. I get angry and I'm told to shut up. I try to love, I pick my battles carefully so I don't burn out and stay in the fight the distance, and it's - somehow not enough?

those in the middle are tired of the "love" that is splashed all over and they don't want to even think about how it COULD be interesting if looked at more interrogatively.

I DO think about it - again, I feel you're mischaracterizing me here if you're lumping me "in the middle".

Yes I do know people who have dropped out of fandom because they don't have the time or energy to continue to fight the fights. Some wonderful voices are lost, and that's too bad. Everyone has to make that choice for themselves.

I'm determined to "stay in the game" - keep talking, keep writing, keep making icons, keep recommending the work by people - like yourself - who do love female characters, who speak on these issues more effectively than perhaps I can.

Because I am angry. But I don't have the elegant intellectual phrases and fancy arguments. I can't compete with that. I don't have the energy, physically or mentally, that I had twenty years ago. What I can do is talk about who I love and why, over and over. and make an effort to reconsider characters who are hard for me to love and why. And it works, in very real ways. I've seen it happen.

If that's not sufficient in someone else's judgment, well - that's what I have to give.

I think if fandom had an uprising and there were more female-centric conversations and people started prioritizing females, eventually TPTB would notice.

I agree - and that's why we do what we do here in fandom. It's why

clockwork_hart1 has switched from largely shippy fic to friendship and female-oriented fic in the last year. When I talk about Joyce, I find that a character no one is "interested in" is - actually of interest to quite a few people. You've generated interest in Dawn that never existed before. It just needed ONE person to say "look again".

We are the change we want to be, even if we go about it differently.

Because media is a long-term battle and if we change OUR dialogue, eventually the rest of the world will take note.

Over four decades I've seen so many moments when I've thought "this is it, things are really starting to change". And then they backslide, and the pendulum swings back and forth, conservative to liberal and back again.

What we need is to get OUT of that pendulum swing altogether and acknowledge an entirely new paradigm. It hasn't happened yet, but I'll keep trying. I trust we are allies in this fight.

Edited 2014-03-22 23:30 (UTC)

Interestingly, my shippy fic has always been few and far between. I came into the fandom as a spuffy shipper, but when I started writing, I never felt I could add anything to that place. I certainly didn't have a 36 chapter epic to tell like some of my favourite authors, and I wasn't confident with pwp and still am not spuffy-wise.

I think maybe the first fic I wrote in the fandom was a Save Fred fic because her death hurt me so much that I wasn't able to just let it go. Then I started trying to post weekly to the fantas magoria challenges, which was on Ats s5, hence why a lot of my early fic focuses on Angel, Spike and Wes (and Illyria, actually).

I played with the boys after that because they had become easier to write, and it was after that the female centric stuff came in because it was honestly what I found more interesting. I challenged myself to write it and then became addicted to studying their complexities in a way that I hadn't felt with the boys and hence why now they're more dear to my heart. But it wasn't until I branched out that I wanted to read other People’s thoughts and feelings about these things, and now that's what my fandom life is devoted to.

I played with the boys after that because they had become easier to write

I think that relates to what drove the first Star Trek fanfic Kirk/Spock shippers - they wanted to write about interesting characters and relationships, but there were no interesting female characters to be found. So they subverted canon.

Nowadays there ARE rich, interesting female characters but they are not being written in fandom about to the extent that the guys are.

I challenged myself to write it and then became addicted to studying their complexities in a way that I hadn't felt with the boys and hence why now they're more dear to my heart.

I think I'm "lucky" (?) in that I never had to make that "translation" or mental leap. The ladies were ALWAYS were it was at for me. The opposite is the hard part for me - I'm not anti-guy, I have brothers and uncles and male friends and I love them. But the interest just isn't there for me.

Surrogate father-daughter relationships are an exception: Doctor #7 and Ace, Satine and Zidler, Jordan Cavenaugh and Garret Macy (Garret is one of the few male characters I really love), Buffy and Giles.

It wasn't that the girls were less interesting to me, but more that they were challenging because they were so rich and diverse, I didn't want to fuck it up and I already HAD the experience writing the guys. I just found them even more entrancing as I explored them. i never thought I'd love Dawn and her facets in the way I do now if I hadn't started writing her - and I'm so glad I did. Thinking about it, all of the spuffy shippy fic I have written is all about character exploration and the smaller moments between them that I fell in love with.

Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.

I was terrified to write - or write about - Buffy because I didn't think I could do her justice, fully wrap my hands and my mind around her complexity, that I couldn't because I had too big of a Buffy-shaped blindspot, etc. I'm not sure that I've ever "got her right" or that I'll ever post the fic I've written since last September.

Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.

It's been around for several years - I don't know who made it, but

penny_lane_42 was using it, and I had one spot left and HAD to snag it. It was time to bring it back out of the closet IMO.

Whoever gave me the paid account has no idea what they've done. Once upon a time I was content with 15 icons. Now 32 isn't enough - I WANT MORE, MORE DAMNIT! *lol*

The fact that "fridging" is still considered ok as a "plot device" is horrifying.
It's so gross I can't....

And ouch. I didn't know that about Bones and that makes me so sad. I'm a couple seasons behind (due to not having netflix in BKK) but I had serious over-identification ~feelings w/r/t Bones. ugh.

I feel like I'm being somewhat misrepresented here
I'm sorry. I was trying to make a general statement about shipper-fatigue. Which I have come across many, many times. And I was placing you there because I know that you have shipper-fatigue (especially with Spike/Dawn shippers). I was NOT saying that there's anything wrong with feeling this way - but that the problem is that the culture surrounding Spike/Dawn shipping (for example) has become such a toxic place that the conversations I've had with you have centered on how frustrated you are with the gendered-centrism of the conversation. Which is totally fine and valid. I understand and agree with you. And it happens all over fandom. Something pops up for me that feels really interesting that might build conversation and because of negativity produced in shipper and anti-shipper communities, conversation has a hard time starting.

THIS HAS HAPPENED TO ME MANY TIMES.

And generally I just shrug it off or ignore it. But as we are having a discussion about the toxic environment negative shippers bring to the table it would feel neglectful if I didn't mention that this sometimes happens? And that I'm more frustrated that the environment breeds this kind of fatigue than that people are justifiably frustrated.

I get angry and I'm told to shut up. I try to love, I pick my battles carefully so I don't burn out and stay in the fight the distance, and it's - somehow not enough?
Fandom is shitty. I wish there was a way that you didn't have to play tiptoe like this. It's upsetting that there's anything to be angry about and that you feel as though you need to tiptoe.

(and if I ever made you feel as though you need to tiptoe around me, I'm sorry. I know that I would rather talk about the good things than the bad most of the time, but I'm breaking into the fray because this year has been so upsetting. I'd love a scenario where Dawn/Spike dynamics aren't so frustrating for you so that we can talk about them. I'm mad at the dynamic for the sake of you - because I want you there with me. Does that make sense?)

Really these were general statements and I did not mean to direct them towards or on you at all. Except in the sense that I thought you understood shipper-fatigue?

I love that you love. I love when anyone loves. I'm so sorry that there are places of fandom that leave anyone feeling like the conversation isn't one that they can participate in because of negativity.

*sigh*

I really hope fandom starts getting it's shit together and these small changes grow and expand.

I just wanted to reiterate that I agree with everything you say and support you in your rage because yes, the way female characters are treated in fandom is shitty. I've been just playing the devil's advocate here. The fact that women are used to serve male narratives is shitty. I don't want to be Pepper Potts. Pepper is great, but why can't a woman be Iron Man? So no argument with anything you say. I may not be as passionate as you are - and you're passionate for wonderful reasons - but I want the same female-centric narratives you want. I want women to stop being friged. I want media to pay attention to f/f ships. I want ladies to have relationships with each other that don't revolve around a man. I want Alison Bechdel to be happy with how media is portraying women. That won't be happening over night, but we can rally around stories that center on women (I got

red_satin_doll watching Veronica Mars and Orphan Black, so that's a win for me).

Anyway, I just feel bad that this hurts you so much. But I'm here to support you in your pained rage.

ILY.

Edited 2014-03-23 22:33 (UTC)

Lexi there's no way we could be having this conversation to begin with if you hadn't started it, and we know you are a staunch defender of female characters. And I don't see you as any less passionate as Kelsey, or myself, or Lucy - we all express our passion in different ways and that's marvelous. we need all the voices in the room we can get - we need every single voice in the room.

Pepper is great, but why can't a woman be Iron Man?

Because (white, able-bodied) male is the default setting. I can say "we need more women storytellers" but there is no evidence that women will tell more female-centric stories (fandom is proof of that.) Meanwhile, some of my favorite f/f writers in fandom are men; the only conversation I've seen online that is respectful of Marti Noxon as a writer and artist was amongst a group of male fans. Phyllis Schafley led the charge against the ERA back in the 1970's.

So lest anyone think this about male vs female, it's not.

I've been just playing the devil's advocate here.

So - what was the argument again, really?

I'm a couple seasons behind (due to not having netflix in BKK) but I had serious over-identification ~feelings w/r/t Bones. ugh.

I made it to somewhere into early S8 on Netflix and had to stop in disgust so I'm torn between wanting to tell you STOP and "keep watching, experience my pain and rage and then talk about it because IT NEEDS TO BE SAID!"

clockwork_hart1 just said this on her blog: And I never saw Bones from the start...The ones that I have seen, well, they're trying for Anya-level no-people-skills-aren't-regular-people-cute and hitting calculated moron. What the glittery fuck, guys? Aren't women on TV allowed to just be intelligent? Yuck. http://clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com/20681.html?thread=316617#t316617

Her Anya-and-Xander comparison is frighteningly accurate. Yuck hardly covers it.

the conversations I've had with you have centered on how frustrated you are with the gendered-centrism of the conversation.

Which was really only a few posts in a single conversation of the many I've had; I don't think it represents everything I have to say on the subject. In any case, what I said then and what you're saying here are exactly the same things. We're just each somewhat more sensitive to certain characters; and I perhaps misread the "temperature" of the room. If you specifically said in your post that you wanted celebration and I completely missed that, then that's on me. Spike/Dawn are one of your loves, so I could have been more discrete. Your passion, your anger is my own, even if we differ on what triggers us.

conversation has a hard time starting.

how do you even start a conversation with people who don't see the problem, and/or don't think it's a problem to begin with? With people who don't want to talk and listen to one another? And we wonder why there's no peace in the Middle East.

But as we are having a discussion about the toxic environment negative shippers bring to the table it would feel neglectful if I didn't mention that this sometimes happens?

Absolutely! I just felt that I was being labeled in a way that misrepresents me, based on a handful of conversations or a couple of comments I made; just as your comments here don't represent the totality of who you are and your opinions.

I wish there was a way that you didn't have to play tiptoe like this.

I certainly understand shipper fatigue, it frustrated me for a while; so my strategy has been primarily been to "ac-cen-tu-ate the positive" as the song goes. Sometimes I still do rant, but I'm not spending all my time swimming upstream in a current that's only going to drown me. I'm digging out my own beautiful river.

if I ever made you feel as though you need to tiptoe around me, I'm sorry.

I know it wasn't ever intentional. But I DO appreciate you saying that, very much, it means a lot to me. *hugs*

because I want you there with me. Does that make sense?

Completely.

I'm so sorry that there are places of fandom that leave anyone feeling like the conversation isn't one that they can participate in because of negativity.

And I'm happy that conversations like this are happening as well. I'm happy that chasingdemons made a manip of the ladies of the verse inspired by my enthusiasm and energy as a newish fan. I'm oh so happy that you focus on Dawn the way you do and people are realizing how aweseome she is. I'm thrilled that the internet exists and all these conversations aren't happening in isolation, just a few people at a time, because the internet wasn't around and now we can talk to one another no matter where we are and that's AWESOME.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Quick quick now!

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)

Re: (pt 2)