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red_satin_doll) wrote2013-07-27 05:07 pm
red_satin_doll) wrote2013-07-27 05:07 pm
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Or what's a beta for? And, is there a beta in your meta?
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comlodge just re-stated the point in the convo thread below that I was attempting to make re: beta-readers and meta and did so better and far more concisely than I could ever hope to. I bow to her awesomeness.I just noticed one more empty "pending" slot in the Beta catagory at the Running With Scissors Awards, which seems odd to me. Thousands of fandom writers (theoretically) = thousands of betas (theoretically) = unable to fill six slots? Granted a good beta is hard to find - or rather, a successful author-beta partnership based on complete trust and respect for the other person may just be harder to find than a good marriage. The author needs to be able to choose someone who can offer objective, constructive criticism, not flames or insults; who can judge the work based upon what the writer is trying to achieve in the piece and how much it fails or succeeds in that goal; and the beta needs to be someone who can offer help but then detach themselves and always remember it is the author's story, not their own.
On the other side of the page, nothing is more frustrating as a beta (I speak from experience, of course) than dealing with an author who says they want feedback when what they really want is praise. And this is true of 99% percent of the writers I've dealt with, who say they want "feedback" when what they're really after is ego strokes. Of course every writer wants that, but when an author is entering a relationship with a beta partner they need to be clear as to what, exactly they are looking for: an editor? A cheerleader? A teacher or taskmaster? Someone to brainstorm with? Line by line analysis of plot, structure, etc? Hugs and puppies? I'm not a beta for any writers in this fandom currently but I'm a "Muse" for one of my closest friend's novels (we prefer the title "Muse" to "beta"), and I've always been more than willing to give the writers I've working with the feedback they need, if they are willing to listen to what I have to say. (Why ask a beta for their opinion if you don't want to actually hear it?)
One thing I noticed since I've been a part of this fandom: betas are considered essential to fanfiction, to the point that authors actually apologize for not having a beta; why is it then that "meta" (nonfiction writing) posts very rarely mention the feedback of a beta? The exceptions I've seen have tended to be the more intellectual or academic fan essays and analysis. The other day I asked someone to beta a fanfic I'm working on but it's never occured to me to request feedback on a nonfiction fan essay before posting it. Is it custom? Habit? Lack of interest in nonfiction writing in relation to fiction?
(ETA paragraph breaks, hyperlinks, and screencap. Clearly, this post needed a beta of it's own.)
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Here I assume the word is used instead of editor. Editors are, apparently the bane of writers. Always changing their work. Except there are different types of editing - for grammar, punctuation, sentence, paragraph construction as well as continuity. It is not an editors job to change the story because the story is the author's job.
So at the very least all of us could do with a beta to fix our spelling errors and basic grammar and construction. But a beta could also perform the task of pointing to a more structured, cohesive plot, pick up charachter portrayals/developments that are incongruous with preceding parts of the stories and or canon charachter traits, time lapses that aren't explained, suggest the correct genre, etc. I'm sure we've all read a story or a meta, loved the basic plot, or idea but the grammar and or spelling mistakes drives us batty and sometimes drive us away.
I think I would be a dreadful beta. I'd be wanting to rewrite the story, I'm sure. Having said that I'm also aware that a beta would save me the countless edits I make to something I've posted just for grammar and sentence construction. A beta could also suggest a different way to say something that would give the story, or at least, that part of it, more impact. Even a very good writer needs the services of a good beta/editor.
A good working relationship between a beta and a writer, or in RL an editor and a writer, should produce a story fiction or non fiction that will have the readers come back for more.
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In short, I humbly bow to your way with words, my Queen. And true to form I respond with - a lot more words.
I'd never come across the term 'beta' til I came here.
Neither had I. I'd not come across the term meta in this context either - I guess it's meant to me "all nonfiction fanwriting"? Which could include stream of consciousness or off the cuff observations, very academic analysis, fangirl (or boy) squee, even fiction or artwork (I mentioned Lostboy's "Monomythology of Buffy" as an example. But I guess some of your own artwork could be included, making ties between Anne Pratt and Dawn/Buffy for example.)
Previously "meta" meant to me any cultural product (art, media) that is self-referential, that acknowledges the fact that the product is just that, a created product made for an audience and acknowledging the audience's existence. Or a particular example of winking at the audience. ("Dawn's in trouble, must be Tuesday" is a reference to the day of the week Btvs aired at the time. Or callbacks to "Nightmares" in Restless and Bargaining, etc.) I'm pretty sure that's the basic definition in literary and media studies? It's considered very "post-modern" but writers and artists throughout history have done that, inserted themselves as narrators/characters and spoken directly to the audience; put self-portraits into landscapes, devotional pieces commissioned by a church or portraits of patrons, etc, recognized only by those "in the know". We tend to think of it as modern I think because nowadays it's done by pretty much everyone.
In any case I dislike both the terms "Beta" and "meta" in this context. They seem a bit cold and clinical to me and meta seems vague to me, but they're what's used in these parts. When in Rome...bitch about the train schedules and the feral cats. (*lol*)
Here I assume the word is used instead of editor. Editors are, apparently the bane of writers.
Mostly writers who think their every word is precious I should think - or perhaps in response to tactless and egotistical editors? I'd imagine there's a difference between those who are paid to do it and have a boss and a market to answer to, vs those who do it for love.
But a beta could also perform the task of pointing to a more structured, cohesive plot, pick up charachter portrayals/developments that are incongruous with preceding parts of the stories and or canon charachter traits, time lapses that aren't explained, suggest the correct genre, etc....I'm sure we've all read a story or a meta, loved the basic plot, or idea but the grammar and or spelling mistakes drives us batty and sometimes drive us away.
EXACTLY THIS. The basics of writing are the same regardless of style, genre, etc.
I think as a beta it's really my job to offer to the writer what they want from me, and in return let them know my limits, what I can't do (I'm good at characterization and the flow and logic of the story, of tonal shifts etc), and when I really don't feel I have anything to offer for whatever reason. (horrible at grammar or maybe it's not a genre or story that speaks to me.)
And I have to remember that it is not my story. Mutual respect, communication and clear expectations/boundaries are essential.
A good working relationship between a beta and a writer, or in RL an editor and a writer, should produce a story fiction or non fiction that will have the readers come back for more.
And that's ALWAYS the bottom line, both in an individual work and in terms of the creator's total output.
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When I go to Rome, I shall eat pasta and pizza and bitch that they're not authentic 'cos they are nothing like back home in Oz!
And this is where I would fail, I'm sure. I would want to rewrite it. There is a genre here called 'remix' where authors rewrite each other's stories, with permission. Of course, fanfic is a 'remix' of canon.
You may prepare my breakfast now, my handmaiden. I'll have it in bed because it's too early and cold to be sitting here at my little desk. :D
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I have no problem with friends who've asked me to beta but I had a friend I tried writing a collaborative fic with and - that didn't work in the long run. I always thought of myself as a good collaborator, a good follower but in this case it was like two queen bees in the same hive. And I think in the end it may have cost me a friendship. I have no idea, they stopped talking to me one day after promising they'd never do such a thing. :-(
Of course, fanfic is a 'remix' of canon.
YES, exactly this. And it's not limited to fandom at all. Michael Cunningham's novel "The Hours" is a remix of Virginia Woolf's "Mrs Dalloway" (esp the first chapter).It's fanfiction (he's a great fan of Woolf) albeit professionally published.
You may prepare my breakfast now, my handmaiden
Does Her Majesty prefer her grapes peeled or unpeeled?
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I suppose that most writing is a remix these days. I know that what I write here must have elements of the hundreds of stories I read before I even thought to begin writing my own.
Peeled and seeded please. Hate grape seeds in my teeth. :D
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One of my favorite quotes is from Virginia Woolf: “I have lost friends, some by death... others through sheer inability to cross the street.”
I'm not sure I've ever gotten the balance quite right. I am mostly very yielding, cooperative, supportive but I have a core of stubbornness and anger and hurt that gets in the way many times. The worst of course is as you say the "unknown". It may have had nothing to do with me, so in absence of evidence I'll blame myself anyway.
BTW - I wish we had a word like "bint" in the US. it seems quite a bit less harsh to me than "Bitch" although maybe it means the same thing in the end?
Hate grape seeds in my teeth.
*sneaks out and buys seedless grapes*
Just so long as you don't expect me to de-seed the raspberries. (I tried making raspberry jelly one year instead of jam at my sweetie's request - never again. Easier to just buy the stuff.)
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I am mostly very yielding..
I think this is actually a trait of many women in general. I think it is the result of living in a patriarchal society, dealing with men under their rules. I often complain to myself that I allow my friend to 'push' me around, ie I follow her ideas even though I don't quite agree. She is actually quite manipulative in how she goes about getting her idea to win the day. I've told her this sometimes, when I've got quite fed up with it and she smiles and then we laugh. I think this behaviour is another consequence of living in a 'man's' world. We women, frequently, have to resort to manipulative methods to get our way in dealing with the men in our lives, who look condescendingly at us as though we could not possibly know.
We are all of us, works in progress. We hopefully change and grow as we age, making big and little mistakes along the way and hopefully finding one or two true friends to stay the journey with us. :D
Don't like rasberries that much so you're safe there. Mulberries on the other hand - hmmm.
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It's definitely a pattern I learned watching my mom while growing up. the irony of course is that she is a very strong woman, but in fact so are a lot of abused and oppressed women (people.) strength through endurance and sheer survival. And she learned it growing up and so forth.
I used to tell myself I'd "never do that" but then - did just that. In my case the irony is that my partner is another woman. She doesn't mean to, but she's an immovable force. I'm not going to change that. but I regret how often I've "given in" because it feels like giving up pieces of myself over time. (It's one of the reasons that I don't hate W/T that way a lot of people do, even though I hate Willow's actions that season - or at least, the fact that women do hurt other women, that lesbians do abuse their partners, is something that resonates with me as being very real and true to life. It's the "dirty little secret".)
But my partner learned her behavior as another method of survival - she was once the one who yielded to an older partner when she was young. She learned it from her parents but also as a single woman who had to survive in the '70's & '80's being the only woman in many job settings: carpentry, auto repair, etc.
We women, frequently, have to resort to manipulative methods
Confession: I have on a couple of occasions resorted to tears to get my way or more often to extract sympathy and end an argument. Granted I cry easily anyway, but then I always feel awful about it afterwards. I'm supposed to be a feminist, I'm NOT supposed to behave that way. Ugh
We hopefully change and grow as we age, making big and little mistakes along the way and hopefully finding one or two true friends to stay the journey with us.
That's all we can hope for isn't it?
Mulberries - the first time I had them was in North Carolina from someone's tree 15 years ago - big, fat, and juicy. Our tree only yields pathetic scrawny things but the tree is rather wild anyway (and this summer was horrible.) the best ones in the neighborhood are on the trees that line the road so I wouldn't dare eat them thanks to car exhaust.
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One day we put three young fillies, almost two into the paddock with these mares. The old mares put them in their place immediately - bottom of the peck. Then I watched the usual routine at the water trough. Except now my sweet old mare took her turn being a bitch to the babies.
Moral - we are a product of genetics, environment and our own innate insecurities. We act as we have learned, unless we make a conscious effort to change ourselves; to recognise a pattern that is not healthy and a way we could do it better. No sense beating ourselves up over it. No sense beating up those who won't change either.
Mulberies - they need lots of water before they begin fruiting to get big fat juicy ones. Car exhaust. The Lockyer Valley (where I live) is a big provider of vegies. Vegie farms line the highways and major roads around here. So much for 'healthy' vegies! :D