red_satin_doll | Canon-related questions for Buffyologists

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Canon-related questions for Buffyologists

There's a couple of items about Buffy Summers that I've seen in several fanfics and wondered if they were "canon" or "fanon" information. I don't trust my memory, especially when I've probably spent more hours at this point reading fanfiction than actually watching the show. (What that says about me I shudder to imagine.)

By "canon", I am of course referring to BtVS, seasons 1-7 only, not the comics (aka Get behind me, Satan!)

1) Is Buffy's given name "Buffy" or "Elizabeth"? I've read "Elizabeth Anne Summers" used in several fanfics and it feels like it might have been mentioned somewhere in S1-3 on the show, if at all?

Actually, I just wanted an excuse to post this screencap. But while you're here:

2) Does Buffy refer to herself in third person at any other point on the show except for Life Serial: "stupid Buffy" "freak Buffy"? A lot of stories have her refer to herself in this way, usually when she's berating herself, although generally not while drunk. (For someone who can't hold her liquor she seems to drink quite a lot of it in LS. Slayer metabolism, apparently.)

Also, she generally does so whilst kicking herself mentally over something regarding Spike, so do early season/Bangel 'ship writers have her referring to herself in this manner as well?

No, no further questions; I just love SMG in this episode so damn much I can hardly stand it. I mean - come on, Giles, how can you resist that face? Buttons and puppies are weeping in envy. Now do your duty to your Slayer and hand her the check without making her feel like it's an act of charity on your part.

I love Giles, I do. But damn it, he can be an ass sometimes.

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Her given name is Buffy and

velvetwhip is right that the confusion comes in because Buffy is also a nickname for stuck up Elizabeths. It goes Elizabeth ... Bethy ... Buffy ... if you want to trace how it happened at all. I still don't get it, but hey I don't make these things up. They are too strange even for me.

As for the third person thing ... she refers to herself in the third person in "The Prom" I believe. When she says "I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing." I can't remember if she says it elsewhere, but she doesn't do it to the point of being annoying.

*hugs and love*

Very good point about The Prom, that sounds about right.

I just today noticed "Elizabeth" being used in some of those AU 19th century Spuffy fics, which makes sense.

That's a gorgeous icon btw did you make it.

No I didn't make it ...

valyssia made it. I do make icons from time to time, but I've never made a Buffy icon. If you want to snag it, just credit Val and I know she wouldn't mind.

I understand that historic AUs would probably need her to be named Elizabeth because Buffy back then was just a nickname. But in any modern piece it is just wrong.

I don't read Spuffy so I wouldn't notice those things. I've written one Spuffy fic and that was my intro in the BtVS fanfic and since then it has all been Spillow and Wangel and various other rare ships. I only really like Spuffy on the show. That is way more than enough for me. I don't like seeing them in romantic twists, they weren't a romantic pair. Buffy used Spike and then threw him away and then used him some more. I think the love there was all one-sided and rather obsessive and dark. I like that type of thing but all the Spuffy fics I see are romantic dribble that turns them into fools and that to me is just not them.

The point of that rant was to simply say ... I'll take your word for it because I'll never find out for myself because I don't read them.

By the bye ... I took the quote from "The Prom" straight from the transcripts from BuffyWorld. It is verbatim what she says to Angel when they see each other at the butcher's shop. I looked it up to be sure.

I'm the biggest Buffy nerd there is ... if you ever have a question about show canon ... so long as it occurs while the shows were on the air ... I pretty much know all. I didn't watch that many interviews, but I've been watching Buffy since the beginning and I never missed an episode. I've rewatched the series and Angel more times than I can remember and I know lines off by heart and quote them often. I know the show backward and forward. If I don't know the answer, I will before I get back to you, because it will bother me if I don't.

But despite my recent poll about Spuffy ethics ... I don't ship them really ... unless I am watching the show ... and then I can't get enough of that broken and messed up relationship. I love me some broken couples. Don't worry ... I'm getting help for this. ;P

*hugs and love*

I think I have another one of her icons on my harddrive somewhere, thanks. I actually have more icons than I have space for on my LJ (free account so I only get 15.)

I don't like seeing them in romantic twists, they weren't a romantic pair. Buffy used Spike and then threw him away and then used him some more. I think the love there was all one-sided and rather obsessive and dark. I like that type of thing but all the Spuffy fics I see are romantic dribble that turns them into fools and that to me is just not them.

Oh boy..

I'm going to agree to disagree a little - or maybe we don't really disagree at all except in terms of semantics? I loved S6, love Buffy and Spike in S6-7 for all it's darkness and pain and even moments of tenderness. I don't need them to be the "perfect romantic couple" that's not the point (I explain a bit more in my comments below, hopefully). but I will say that IMO the relationship is very much a mutually-abusive one and they are pretty equal on almost every level in that respect. He uses her (for sex, for companionship, for status, for protection, for money, for the thrill of it; to reach toward the light but not be alone in the dark); she uses him and around and around it goes. There is so much self-hate and delusion coming from both of them that almost anything I say of Buffy in that relationship is true of Spike as well. I like

the_royal_anna's term for them then, "identity hijack": "it's need bleeding into need..."

And I really do appreciate their journey in S7 more and more; what they have really doesn't match any cultural template for how a relationship "should" be, which is pretty true of RL I think. We get a lot of warped ideas about love and romance from our culture and mass media, which both Buffy and Spike carry around and it damages both of them terribly But maybe I like them best as friends, companions, and as two perfectly-matched warriors?

I hope I'm not coming off as defensive, BTW! I'm always happy to talk about late seasons but I know how fraught and sensitive it can be.

I don't ship them really ... unless I am watching the show ... and then I can't get enough of that broken and messed up relationship. I love me some broken couples. Don't worry ... I'm getting help for this. ;P

Eh, romance is overrated anyway. And "in love" is a phase, a chemical attraction; actual "love" on a deeper level to me is more interesting because it's genuine work, and it's not necessarily pretty. In fact, it rarely is.

It's interesting to me how a lot of "Spuffy" fics read like reworkings of the Bangel relationship and "forever/true love" with all the ribbons and bow; but then other people prefer evil Spike; conversely some Bangel fics (admittedly I've read very few) are as dark and twisted as Spuffy in S6 ever was. There are even people who 'ship "Bangelus". Ok, not my thing, but the point is, whatever I can find in one 'shipping faction I find in another. It's like the meta

spuffy_luvr linked to said, "people are all the same". And we want what we want. So we can disagree about our preferences but getting into arguements and wars over it seems silly. Besides, to me the point of the show is Buffy allowing herself to "love" (and I don't mean romantically necessarily; that included loving her friends and herself, and loving enough to let go); that she doesn't "need" a man in order to be strong or complete.

You should take my Spuffy ethics poll. I'd like to see your answers. I won't tell you mine though ... not yet. You may just have to wait until I write the meta that comes after this poll. I plan on breaking down the relationship of Spike and Buffy bit by bit and analyzing it. I'm such a nerd. But I think it is worth doing.

I get that talking about anything when it comes to Spuffy or Bangel can get sensitive and I'm like a sledge hammer when it comes to that stuff, so if I hit a sore spot ... I apologize.

I'll tell you what I think about Spuffy some other time. Take the poll so I can add your opinion in. I think you have an interesting viewpoint.

*hugs and love*

BTW - I just friended you if that's ok? You and Gabrielle must be friends (I'm assuming) as I see you both of you write Willow-centric fic and unconventional pairings.

Edited 2013-01-02 23:54 (UTC)

Gabrielle and I are friends. She's a doll and writes some awesome fics!!!! If you like rarer pairs or Willow at all ... maybe you can check out some of my stuff. But only if you are into that sorta thing. I'm not pressuring you to read. But a forewarning ... some of my stuff is very strange ... not the norm ... off kilter kinda stuff really.

I'll friend you back!!!

*hugs and love*

Thanks! I'm trying to expand my reading habits (i.e., I'm burned out on "Spuffy" fics unless it's really superb stuff **sshhh!! don't tell anyone I said that!**) But I'm also trying (and mostly failing) to spend less time reading fanfic so I can, you know, write my own metas and actually get stuff done around the house. I feel like I'm turning into the fan equivalent of a pothead if I don't rein it in a bit! I do enjoy twisted, ironic, self-aware fics, meta fic, and really just WELL-WRITTEN stories with true-to-canon characterizations.

Your Willow/Spike icon is VERY pretty!

Edited 2013-01-03 00:58 (UTC)

Thanks

rua1412 made it. I have 13 Spillow icons in total ... they are my OTP.

I have two fics that I think are pretty good character wise and story wise. If you don't mind your demons also being aliens and Spike and Willow trapped on alien planets from time to time, I just started writing a series Across the Universe that is a slow build on Willow/Spike. I have two stories written for it so far. The link takes you to the master post.

But there is my other WIP, Persona which I also think is good. The "pairing" there is Willow/Angel/Spike/Buffy ... there's a tiny bit of Spuffyness to it but there is a lot of Bangel and a lot of Wangel and some Spillow and more Willow/Angel/Spike than I know what to do with. HOWEVER, this is a really strange story and it is not everyone's cup of tea. This is a rewrite of an older fic of mine and the concept there is not overly popular. It is the trope of a bond ... but this one goes sideways and I will warn you that it gets confusing on who is talking when and the words we, us and they are used in very interesting ways. To put it bluntly, if you don't like the idea of a collective consciousness I suggest you skip it.

I have a few drabbles that are good. I'm especially proud of my Faith/Buffy drabble Mirror, Mirror. You can find the link in my sidebar.

If you like peek through your fingers dark there is Violazioni, but I warn you not to eat before reading ... it gets graphic and has been accused of being torture porn in places. I don't think I crossed the line but other people think I did. Not for the faint of heart. That is a Angel/Willow piece where characterizations are a bit different. I think I keep Willow as close to canon as I can get considering what I do to her. But Angel is way OOC. Link again in my sidebar if that interests you.

Basically the newer the better and my sidebar has it all and it isn't dated. But I just gave you everything that I think is at all good. The rest ... read at your own risk. Though to be fair I've been told that my biggest problem is patience. Most of my fics are rushed and summarized. I don't do that with the ones above as much.

Across the Universe is as true to canon as I could get it. Persona is my left hand turn into oncoming traffic, but you said you liked twisted, and Violazioni is as dark as it gets. All of those are long fics by the bye. Not one sitting stuff. But you are more than welcome to try what you will or skip what doesn't interest you. I won't be offended either way.

I just started a new fic that I'll be posting this month ... it is another long one and it is a Spillow BDSM love story set over season 6. There is a season plot as well that I think is rather interesting to boot.

By the way ... everything I do has to have a plot ... I don't write a lot of smut usually. The most smut I've written was in Bruises and that wasn't very well written. Skip it please.

Now I feel like I've gone on forever about myself and know nothing about you other than you like well written Spuffy. What else do you like?

*hugs and love*

Sorry I didn't reply to this - my inbox now has almost 350 messages/comments in it that need replying to. *sigh*

"read at your own risk" - well I always appreciate fair warning, and there's always a back button! Which I've become very skilled at using, after reading a couple of fics where i thought, no, they're not going THERE, are they? This is all going to make sense in the next chapter, isn't it?

I haven't had a chance to get to your fics but thank you for the recs, they're on my list.

My main thing is fairness to all of the characters, compassion for them, no bashing or whitewashing (especially when it comes to Buffy - she's my girl, y'all). Any sign of "Spike was good enough for Buffy S5-6 and why didn't the bitch love him?" will send me right in the other direction.

One of the wonderful things in the show is that each character does horrible things for the right reasons and good things for the wrong reasons; in other words, complex human beings. So reducing any of them to cardboard cutouts is another turn-off for me. Adherence to canon is of the good because the canon is so damn fascinating to begin with. Even AU can be true to canonical characterizations. I demand really good writing or why waste the time? And I love angst - character death doesn't bother me because that's a huge part of canon (except Tara's *sniffle*); it can be "eat it with a spoon dark and desolate angst" or "delicate watercolor angst":
http://snowpuppies.dreamwidth.org/286069.html
http://lynnenne.livejournal.com/221554.html
http://letsgetitdone.livejournal.com/9914.html

I seem to have particular kinks for AU takes on The Gift:
http://desoto-hia873.livejournal.com/162450.html (this one made me tear up)
http://sb-fag-ends.livejournal.com/161082.html (the inspiration for my own fic)
http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/3321.html (shameless self-pimpage alert!)

Also post-Chosen and/or NFA fics:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/580630
http://ozma914.livejournal.com/119151.html
http://rebcake.livejournal.com/45817.html
http://archiveofourown.org/works/98318

I wrote a post yesterday *more shameless self-pimage!* looking for "Rupert Giles as Big Bad" recs or prompts and have gotten some good recs from that, if you want to take a glance: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/10511.html

Quinara wrote a post-series epic poem "Spikeid" that reminds me of the Illyad:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/1922/navigate

Rebcake pointed me to Annie Sewell-Jennings work; and "The Ballad of Randy and Joan" is one of my few NC-17 favorites because it's such a fantastically written AU story (I skim over the sex bits):
http://www.allaboutspike.com/fic.html?id=124
http://www.allaboutspike.com/fic.html?id=535

A couple of my favorite humorous ones:
http://spuffy-luvr.livejournal.com/8632.html
http://st-salieri.livejournal.com/319674.html

And that's just BEGINNING to scratch the surface. (But maybe that's more than you were wanting to hear?)

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