Oh SO MUCH WORD to all your thoughts here regarding Spike's motivations and personality. My thinking has been running along those same lines, except I hadn't given much if any thought to his motivations re: Angel. (I know that AtS is where their relationship is really explored much more fully, whereas it's almost incidental in S2, or at least in service of the story.)
Ironically Spike sets himself up to eventually become a (possible) champion by striking a deal with Buffy in Bargaining, but the primary motivations there are self-preservation, keeping Dru alive (from Buffy) and keeping her as his possession (away from Angel); and simply to be contrary; the metaphorical rebellious teenager/twenty-something who will does the opposite of what his sire wants just for the pleasure of pissing him off
it wasn't until the externally-imposed "goodness" of the chip was removed (at least in Buffy's case) that Spike regained the full freedom of good vs evil, chose to hurt Buffy, and then was forced to confront the consequences of his choice... at which point he was ready to contemplate the drastic voluntary surgery of regaining his soul.
VERY MUCH in agreement here. I think this is pretty objectively a fact in-story (this is what the story is telling us, or told me) but I know this seems to be one of the most contested points of the show. Or rather, I've come across several fans who are more interested in the idea of Spike's soulless redemption, which is expressed a great deal in fanfic.
But I've also had another fan/writer who told me she agreed with me on this issue, but told me privately because she was afraid to do so openly. (She pointed me a fic by JamesMFan in which Spike says to Buffy "thank you for not loving me until I deserved it", http://spikeluver.com/SpuffyRealm/viewstory.php?sid=19153 although I'd also argue that she does "love" or rather feel something deeper than lust in S6.) The notion of soulless redemption never occurred to me and really doesn't interest me. Or rather, any interest I have in Spike's soul is primarily connected to it's effect on Buffy, and how their arcs run in parallel. Soulless redemption seems incomplete to me for exactly the reasons you describe.
I know why it took me so long... the title. Buffy the Vampire Slayer?? It sounded like the most awful fluff.
Yeah, that's probably it. (Although I remember the uproar about Tara's death and them being the first lesbian couple on TV - and it's depressing that they are STILL the exception rather than the rule even today - in the media back in the day which should have interested me at least a little? I didn't have TV then, and only had Netflix in the last couple of years.)
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Ironically Spike sets himself up to eventually become a (possible) champion by striking a deal with Buffy in Bargaining, but the primary motivations there are self-preservation, keeping Dru alive (from Buffy) and keeping her as his possession (away from Angel); and simply to be contrary; the metaphorical rebellious teenager/twenty-something who will does the opposite of what his sire wants just for the pleasure of pissing him off
it wasn't until the externally-imposed "goodness" of the chip was removed (at least in Buffy's case) that Spike regained the full freedom of good vs evil, chose to hurt Buffy, and then was forced to confront the consequences of his choice... at which point he was ready to contemplate the drastic voluntary surgery of regaining his soul.
VERY MUCH in agreement here. I think this is pretty objectively a fact in-story (this is what the story is telling us, or told me) but I know this seems to be one of the most contested points of the show. Or rather, I've come across several fans who are more interested in the idea of Spike's soulless redemption, which is expressed a great deal in fanfic.
But I've also had another fan/writer who told me she agreed with me on this issue, but told me privately because she was afraid to do so openly. (She pointed me a fic by JamesMFan in which Spike says to Buffy "thank you for not loving me until I deserved it", http://spikeluver.com/SpuffyRealm/viewstory.php?sid=19153
although I'd also argue that she does "love" or rather feel something deeper than lust in S6.) The notion of soulless redemption never occurred to me and really doesn't interest me. Or rather, any interest I have in Spike's soul is primarily connected to it's effect on Buffy, and how their arcs run in parallel. Soulless redemption seems incomplete to me for exactly the reasons you describe.
I know why it took me so long... the title. Buffy the Vampire Slayer?? It sounded like the most awful fluff.
Yeah, that's probably it. (Although I remember the uproar about Tara's death and them being the first lesbian couple on TV - and it's depressing that they are STILL the exception rather than the rule even today - in the media back in the day which should have interested me at least a little? I didn't have TV then, and only had Netflix in the last couple of years.)