Today's post brought to you by the need to throw SOMETHING on this journal no matter how silly...

[red_satin_doll]

And also, to remind everyone to vote in the otherworldlyric icon challenge contest #162.
ETA: dragonydreams just let me know that voting is closed and winners have been announced. Congratulations to winners spikesredqueen and chic_c !
(While I'm here I might as well send more kudos to wickedbish for being such an awesome icon beta.)



Now go get some sleep - tomorrow's a long day, sweetie.

Comments

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Is it possible to say "who died and made you queen" also?

The challenge was to use at LEAST two consecutive words in the song's lyrics, so I suppose I could have changed that one word with no harm; but that didn't occur to me at the time. I could try redoing one with the word queen in it? When I post the entire set on here (today?) let me know.

It may not come out exactly the same - that's the thing I add text while the image is large and then shrink it down (with PB it doesn't seem to work the other way and still be legible) so no two icons come out the same from the same image. But I do love playing with text and making icons so I'd be up for that!

I assume that when you talk about the "taking away" of the power you imply the comics.

I've read it in fanfiction as well, all of which have been far better written and better developed than the comics but the solution still never quite works for me no matter how elegantly or skillfully it's presented.

[kikimay]

Gah, I like the word "queen" because of etymology. I chose it for my long-Buffycentric fic. The phrase really assumes other meanings changing king with queen. I think it's because of the hystorical values of these words.

I've read it in fanfiction as well, all of which have been far better written and better developed than the comics but the solution still never quite works for me no matter how elegantly or skillfully it's presented.
For me too the spell is an endgame. I think it's the best possible solution in that situation and I don't see why taking away the power from the girls after. Everytime Buffy makes the "Chosen" speech I could cry ugly empowered tears. It refers to all of us, I think, to take the power in our hands and be brave. It's really inspiring.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about your fic when we were talking earlier - your use of the word queen inspired it in one of my posts in reference to Buffy a while back, a "benevolent queen". http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/17902.html Which is how I see her by the end of the series - as a matriarch.

Everytime Buffy makes the "Chosen" speech I could cry ugly empowered tears. It refers to all of us, I think, to take the power in our hands and be brave. It's really inspiring.

It's one of those things I'm split both ways about (and this show is really good at doing that) - my head analyses it and says "But..."; my heart just melts a little. Especially when I see the girl in the trailer park rise up - WHY don't more fanvids include her rather than the softball girl? Or when Vi kicks ass in the Hellmouth - I get SHIVERS every time.

Would it have been even better if Dawn's Keyness had also been unlocked? Oh yeah. That's a massive fail - but not enough to make me want to reject the whole thing entirely.

[kikimay]

Dawn's potential is SO unxpressed. Especially now, in the comics, when she's paired with Xander. (JESUS CHRIST WHY?!)

How come I didn't read or commented that post? Why? I'm reading it now.
I'm in love with the word "queen" also because etymology, as I was saying. Because I read the the "queen" etymology is uncertain but some guys suspect that it comes from gyné, ancient greek for woman, which makes a lot of sense, but, you know, the central core of the word deeply connects two concepts: power - because queen is a word that means *powerful* - and also woman. And there are other examples of that, like the Italian "donna" (woman) who comes from the latin "domina" which comes from dominium. I mean, it's all theory but language is ancient and it's the most powerful thing to export concepts and nothing is casual. You know, matriarchy in the Mediterraneum, because it was all about men. And it makes me thing of what Willow says to Kennedy about her magic: the magic she uses is definetly old age-y. It's all about taking back what was originally yours and even if the show doesn't really get that - the power comes from the rape, something external - in fanfics we can do it. Can we?

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

It's all about taking back what was originally yours and even if the show doesn't really get that - the power comes from the rape, something external - in fanfics we can do it. Can we?

ABSOLUTELY!

This conversation has inspired some thinky-thoughts - namely, the connection between the way the spell is undone in the comics, and the treatment of Joyce, Sheila and the parents' group (MOO) in Gingerbread. It's the only time we see Joyce in a public function (although she runs a gallery and certainly deals with "the public" on a daily basis); but this is one of the few times in the show we see how powerful she can be in her own right. (Hitting Spike with the axe in School Hard is another!)

But she's bespelled - and ends up nearly killing her own daughter. I think the show was taking MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) and other groups as a template or inspiration, but the episode displays a fear of female power, of women stepping forward in the public spotlight to create change. The show (Joss) prefers Joyce as a private person. The episode shows women banding together as something threatening, something dangerous. And I think we see that play out in the comics.

Joss says he wanted to make a show about strong women, and about a man who "isn't afraid of strong women, and in fact is turned on by them" (I think he meant Xander? Whatever.) And I guess that's how he wants to see himself. But he's more like Riley - wants to believe he's not afraid of "strong women" so long as they behave themselves, or use their power in "appropriate" ways, don't step out of line too far, and are young and nubile. (Maggie Walsh is a powerful woman, and look what happens to her.)

So there's definitely a double-standard going on here!

[kikimay]

All the older women in BtVS are not an example and, if they are, they are a bad example (Maggie) but I guess it's more about generations than genders. Older generations are represented by Joyce, but also by Giles and all the Council members (And maybe by vampires too. Spike and Angel are pretty old and they show it at times) while the younger generation is the one that matters (Willow, Buffy, Dawn, Xander etc) I think it's more about generations. Or at least, that's my first impression.

Joyce doesn't look good in Gingerbread, but I LOVE that episode. Especially because it's so true. The error of all these women was to judge and take a stand against something they really didn't understand. Joyce is tricked by the creepy children but the others are becoming the medieval inquisition without no basis and without real desire to understand and how many times that happens in RL? Against immigrants, gay, atheist or whatever. There's always someone who has to "protect" society from the evil bad different people. And while Joyce is tricked, Sheila is just superficial and pompous, the Mayor *knows* all the time and he uses this thing to take personal advantage.

The thing about Joyce - and generally women - having to be private, just strikes me in the comics, because of the all Twangel - "I'm taking back everything I did in seven seasons" - plot. And it doesn't feel good.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I think you have a very good point about the generational aspect and that's true - (apparently Joss has parental issues). But in this instance gender and age definitely intersect (plus race in the cases of Jenny and Olivia.) There are a multiplicity of "Fathers", father-figures especially in terms of their effects on Buffy or on the Slayers generally. The WC is a patriarcial institution and we only see a couple of female watchers; Gwendolyn is entirely evil. There's Giles, Angel, Hank.

But only one literal "mother" - Joyce. There are symbolic mother figures (Buffy, Tara) but every mother figure in the verse that I know of except Buffy and Drusilla are dead by the end of btvs or ats.

I suppose the lack of female figures to be role models/guides for Buffy is supposed to be part of the point but even in very "conservative" societies women have complex social bonds and interrelationships. The show repeats the pattern of society generally which is the erasure of mature women, specifically. It's particularly notable because there is already such a lack of representation of mature women in films etc in the US although that has gotten a lot better in the last 20 years esp in terms of television (older actresses finding quality work in tv when movies are no longer being written for them).

We really don't lack for representations of mature men OTOH when Sean Connery and Harrison Ford can still play romantic or action leads in big-budget films, paired with women young enough to be their daughters.

Joyce is tricked by the creepy children but the others are becoming the medieval inquisition without no basis

I'm pretty sure the same spell affected everyone, but I'd have to watch the ep to be sure of that. I think there are definitely good things about the ep and that "gang mentality" is very real. Buffy is often a stand-in for gays in lesbians esp in S1-2 ("in the closet") but Gingerbread reminds me of parents who have found out their child is gay and love their children but are not at all comfortable with their child's identity, so they look for something/one to "blame". That there is something evil there.

Or even anti-gay protestors who blame the latest hurricane or whatever on homosexuals. It's crazy but there are crazy people out there and yes, they can be destructive.

So as with the Slayer spell, there's good and bad to that episode but that is so true of the series generally.

I like the connection the episode makes between Buffy and Willow, and Joan of Arc. (And poor Amy.)

because of the all Twangel - "I'm taking back everything I did in seven seasons" - plot. And it doesn't feel good.

My first reaction, after WHAT THE HELL? was ok, so were you kidding then or are you kidding now, Joss? I can see both sides of the issue with Chosen, I can see no good from S8. I have tried and tried and squinted and stood on my head but - no.

[kikimay]

There are symbolic mother figures (Buffy, Tara) but every mother figure in the verse that I know of except Buffy and Drusilla are dead by the end of btvs or ats.

Interesting. So do you at Drusilla as mother figure? I've never seen her like that. (To me she's a daughter figure and a very disturbing one.)

Buffy is a mother figure herself, true, and Joyce dies (and she doesn't seem really connected in the first seasons, when she doesn't know about the slayer-thingy) But I really think it's more about age than gender - in this case, because in general movies it's also about gender - because all the father figures in BtVS pretty much ... suck. Xander's father is terrible, Hank's absent and Willow's dad doesn't seem to exist. Plus we get Angelus and the Master who are, at least to me, the creepiest father figures EVER. Even Giles makes some serious mistakes and he's the father figure for Buffy but not much for Xander or Dawn. I really think it's a general bad view of parental figures. (But I TOTALLY agree with the issue about race. Seriously: Kendra, Jenny, Nikki ... all the people who aren't white are also disposable)

Gingerbread makes me think also about politics. Not only the persecution against homosexual which - in my country - is still a huge problem, but also the politics against immigrants and other parts of the country and different people in general. If you happen to read or see something about the latest developments in Italian politics you could see ... a disturbing analogy?
So, yes, it feels so real.